<p>iloveagoodbrew, I didn't read your subsequent post before replying. Doesn't change my response but at least it sounds like you actually think about issues instead of believing in something in a knee-jerk way. (Though I much disagree with you on the last point) But since you take exception to being labeled that way, then consider that I take equal exception. I don't believe in everything that is considered necessary to be a liberal. Not much of a supporter of affirmative action and don't much care about smoking bans, etc.</p>
<p>All right, then you are not uber liberal.</p>
<p>Let's see..</p>
<p>"Gun control" outside of always hitting what your aiming at?
Shouldn't a process be there to try and ensure the wrong people aren't getting weapons? Police departments want gun control.. they must be bad.</p>
<p>"High taxes" compared to what? </p>
<p>"Welfare" Let em starve? if 1 out of 10 screws the system, you should starve the other 9? </p>
<p>"Publicly funded education" absolutely, it has worked for more Americans. It has given every american a chance, even those with special needs. Or, should they just be institutionalized? Maybe if you had a downs kid, you might see the world a bit different.</p>
<p>"Speech codes" like the one that will require "under god" in our pledge?</p>
<p>"'Hate speech' laws" like the swiftboat guys? Pretty much people can say what they want.. ask Mel.</p>
<p>"SEC and anti trust laws" ARe you kidding?
The right should embrace the SEC and anti trust laws.. I deal with the SEC every day and yes they are a pain in the butt, but they protect your money and my money from frauds and scams. Let's see..hmmm.. you don't support oversight of investment and regulations protecting the innocent from scams.. Are you a scam artist? ARe you one of those in the finanical business world that cheats? Or would cheat if those darn SEC rules weren't in place? </p>
<p>"Palestine" Everybody needs a home. We gave one to one side, why not the other?</p>
<p>"smoking bans" Why should I have to breathe your garbage publically? Is your money better than mine? </p>
<p>"affirmative action" Should we go back to salvery? </p>
<p>I find you funny brewman, Are you really this person you claim to be? Please by all means tell us how you would solve all these liberal problems you've listed from gun control to AAct... I'm very curious.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Police departments want gun control.. they must be bad.
[/quote]
No they don't. Have you ever talked to any police officers about this? I have talked to several from three seperate districts in upstate NY, a region with strict gun control.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"High taxes" compared to what?
[/quote]
Clinton era. Currently, Ireland, HK, Singapore, etc are good examples of decent tax rates.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Welfare" Let em starve? if 1 out of 10 screws the system, you should starve the other 9?
[/quote]
Feed them with your own money, not the money you steal (I believe some people use the word 'tax' for this)</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Publicly funded education" absolutely, it has worked for more Americans. It has given every american a chance, even those with special needs. Or, should they just be institutionalized? Maybe if you had a downs kid, you might see the world a bit different.
[/quote]
Lets see, appeal to emotion anyone? Waste of $$.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Speech codes" like the one that will require "under god" in our pledge
[/quote]
Google "Water Buffalo Incident".</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Palestine" Everybody needs a home. We gave one to one side, why not the other?
[/quote]
Its called Jordan.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"smoking bans" Why should I have to breathe your garbage publically? Is your money better than mine?
[/quote]
I specified private. Lets the owners decide. Nice strawman.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"affirmative action" Should we go back to salvery?
[/quote]
I didn't know that slavery and no affirmative action were the same thing. Another nice strawman.</p>
<p>I maybe funny, but you are less than pathetic.</p>
<p>to answer the OP's original question: **** yes it is, goddamnit.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, Helen Suzman didn't say anything about South Africa being "freer", just voicing concerns about the future of South Africa which seem completely legitimate to me. I didn't read anything that was like "Apartheid is good!", more like "Government was better run in some cases and the current regime needs improvement."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>She says that it was a healthier democracy, meaning it wasn’t some corrupt bull-crap like it is now. What exactly do you mean by freer? If you look at all of sub-Saharan Africa and then apartheid South Africa, which one do you think looks freer? If apartheid South Africa oppressed Blacks so much then why did they have a huge illegal immigration rate of Blacks risking life or death trying to get into the country? Why did South Africa have the biggest Black middle class of all of Africa? Why did South African Blacks own more cars than all the Whites in the Soviet Union? Why was the average lifespan of a South African Black during apartheid healthier than today (life span was around 55 years average, now it’s about 35)? All of these are facts and yet the liberal Western world ignored all of this and place economic sanctions and all sorts of liberal biased media against that whole government. This is what I’m getting at, now the country is in horrible condition with an anti-White government and nothing is really heard from the media, why is this? My parents and I’m sure lots of people living during the 80’s saw all the “free South Africa” crap, pro-ANC everything all around the place. I’m sure though if the internet was alive back then like it is now, then the government would of never fell because they could of voiced the truth, but anyway what’s done is done and liberals destroyed so many lives.</p>
<p>*yawn (10char)</p>
<p>iloveagoodbrew and Fides et Ratio are dead on</p>
<p>It's not just political correctness that is destroying objectivity in college... it's the overall rampant liberal bias...</p>
<p>I love this thread.</p>
<p>I'm not the one trying to define freedom here you are. I simply scanned the article you provided to see if your claim that Suzman said South Africa was "freer" under the ANC was true. It was not.</p>
<p>"If apartheid South Africa oppressed Blacks so much then why did they have a huge illegal immigration rate of Blacks risking life or death trying to get into the country? Why did South Africa have the biggest Black middle class of all of Africa? Why did South African Blacks own more cars than all the Whites in the Soviet Union? Why was the average lifespan of a South African Black during apartheid healthier than today (life span was around 55 years average, now its about 35)? "</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I would assume, and this is only an assumption because I have not studied much on the subject, that the surrounding areas were worst off for blacks. </p></li>
<li><p>I'm going to assume that's true (and I'm giving you a large benefit of the doubt here because I find that factoid to be highly unlikely) and save this one for the end. </p></li>
<li><p>There could be a million reasons for that. It depends on how a country defines its middle class compared to that of another country.</p></li>
<li><p>AIDS would be the major factor in that (and many other African nations for that matter) but that can hardly be attributed to the end of apartheid. AIDS rates have jumped in almost every region of the world since the 90's. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Assuming all your little factoids are true, that still doesn't necessarily mean that South Africa was freer under apartheid. You're still ignoring the forced resettlment of black landowners, the forced segregation of the ethnic groups, unequal voting rights (by the way, how is that not a corrupt bullcrap democracy?) etc. </p>
<p>The Suzman article you provided, although it completely dissproved your claim, did have an interesting point at the end where Suzman states the country is still pretty much in transition. </p>
<p>"All of these are facts and yet the liberal Western world ignored all of this and place economic sanctions and all sorts of liberal biased media against that whole government."</p>
<p>I don't think that the Western knew all that was going to happen in advance of them putting in place the economic sanctions. Even if they did, they'd probably still do it.</p>
<p>It seems to me that you're just trying to find ways to justify the unequal treatment faced by blacks and south Asians in South Africa by saying life was better for them. Well, that's fine, just don't try and disguise how unjust and racist the system was and take off your tinfoil hat and quit blaming the grand liberal conspiracy for ruining the lives of South Africans everywhere. If anyone is to blame for South Africa's problems, past and present, it's the government of South Africa, past and present and the people who supported it. No one said that life after apartheid was gonna be a Garden of Eden, there's gonna be a rough transition period. It should be interesting to see how it turns out though, this thread has made me a little bit more interested in contemporary South African society.</p>
<p>OW, You've hit the mark again brewdog.</p>
<p>It's funny to round with you, cause I don't know if you really believe the stuff you post or just do it for s ts and grins. Most of the people I've met that share your philosophy lack teeth. </p>
<p>If you do believe the stuff you post and aren't just trying to flame everychance you get, what a sad loney person you must be.</p>
<p>Getting back to the original topic...</p>
<p>I see all the enthusiastic replies (thanks for that, by the way) here, but I can't help but wonder why college conservatives in particular voice their opinions so strong on internet forums yet seem to falter when the actual situation needs real action. Obviously this does not apply to all college conservatives, but I was personally shocked when I found that, despite clear evidence of the so-called Diversity speaker's plagiarism, conservatives at my friend and I's traditionally conservative college failed to mount any real challenge to him or increasingly liberal administrators/student "Diversity Committee" members. Indeed, even while having the opportunity to do something as simple as posting anonymously in condemnation of the plagiarism and factual errors on the <a href="http://www.questionthecollege.blogspot.com%5B/url%5D">www.questionthecollege.blogspot.com</a> blog (even the liberal Dean of the college herself posted on it), many conservative-minded students/employees of the college did nothing. They merely talked angrily about it when they could be in a private setting where they knew no liberals were around. If such is the case in many colleges and universities around the country, is it any wonder that they are so liberal-dominated? Even simply to be whistleblowers (as my friend and I as well as others have done) against liberal bias, plagiarism, and misinformation is enough to make a difference.</p>
<p>brewdog,</p>
<p>I thought about your complaints about taxes last night and I wondered if you need to fire your accountant. If you didn't know there's a whole segement of people out there whose sole perpose is to minimize your tax liability. Do you need my accountants number? </p>
<p>I guess you could use the Strawdawg thing again. Is that where you can't really answer the question? :)</p>
<p>To the orginal topic,</p>
<p>College professors are both conservative and liberal always have been always will be. What makes them so is if your opinion of them creates the label. As a business major, EVERY professor in the core classes was a conservative. For the phyc minor, EVERY professor was much more liberal than the business department folks. </p>
<p>To quote my goodbuddy brewdog... this is a strawman arguement.</p>
<p>Academic Hubris,</p>
<p>Might I suggest a look at the following book
[quote]
"The Dartmouth Review Pleads Innocent:" Twenty-Five Years of Being Threatened, Impugned, Vandalized, Sued, Suspended, and Bitten at the Ivy League's Most Controversial Conservative Newspaper. </p>
<p>Review:In 1980, disaffected editors from the student daily of Dartmouth College founded an off-campus conservative newspaper known as The Dartmouth Review. For twenty-five years, this renegade student publication, funded largely by discontented alumni, has made national headlines through its unique, provocative, and controversial brand of journalism. In doing so, The Dartmouth Review has shined a spotlight on the progressively liberal assumptions of Dartmouth College and of higher education, radically changing the terms of campus debate. </p>
<p>This anthology presents the history of The Dartmouth Review in its own words, featuring the student writings of the leading conservative journalists of the Reagan era to the present. It also presents the story of a newspaper under constant attack by a liberal ideology that seeks to silence dissent--and the triumph of that newspaper over those attacks. </p>
<p>Featuring additional commentary by William F. Buckley Jr. and Jeffrey Hart, this volume recounts an important chapter in the history of campus activism, Dartmouth College, and the American conservative movement.
[/quote]
<br>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932236937/ref=sr_11_1/103-2559433-4907056?ie=UTF8%5B/url%5D">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932236937/ref=sr_11_1/103-2559433-4907056?ie=UTF8</a> and this college review <a href="http://69.57.157.207/%5B/url%5D">http://69.57.157.207/</a></p>
<p>Im rather fond of it.</p>
<p>everyone on this thread needs to read "Out of Ivy" by Travis Rowley</p>
<p>Apartheid was an evil concept, and no amount of prosperity can justify it. Slavery in America, Nazism, and totalitarian dictatorships all brought certain levels of order and growth to their victimized societies, but in the end, the end can't justify the means.</p>
<p>Gun control
Why yes, I rather enjoy my right to not get shot at.</p>
<p>High taxes
Sigh. Ever read Rawls, or Keynes, or any serious political philosophy at all? Are you familiar with the concept of [url=<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality%5Dexternalities?%5B/url">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality]externalities?[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Welfare
I don't support unlimited substantial aid to able-bodied adults. I do support not allowing people to starve or die of something easily treatable. Why? Human decency. </p>
<p>Publicly funded education
Er, are you seriously saying that people born to poor backgrounds should have absolutely no chance of going into life on a leveled playing field?</p>
<p>Speech codes
'Hate speech' laws
I don't support these. </p>
<p>SEC and anti trust laws
Are you serious? Everyone is hurt by corporate crime. </p>
<p>Palestine
Why, yes, I DO support the palestinians' right to self-determination. </p>
<p>smoking bans
You no more have the right to breathe carcinogens into my face than to inject them into my body. </p>
<p>affirmative action
I support this, to a limited degree, as a stopgap measure to counter four centuries of wrongs. It certainly can be abused.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Gun control
Why yes, I rather enjoy my right to not get shot at.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's what the Nazis said.</p>
<p>
[quote]
affirmative action
I support this, to a limited degree, as a stopgap measure to counter four centuries of wrongs. It certainly can be abused.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The ones who were actually wronged are all dead or retired.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Palestine
Why, yes, I DO support the palestinians' right to self-determination.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What about Israel's right to self-determination?</p>
<p>That's what the Nazis said.</p>
<p>Um, no, it's not. The Nazis believed in, among other things, breathing air, eating food, teaching children how to read and write, and relaxing with a nice cup of beer. Should we abandon all those polices too?
Every Western country has saner, more stringent gun control that the US. Yet, none are tyrannies, and all have</a> much, much lower crime rates</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
The ones who were actually wronged are all dead or retired.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Wrong: "University of Chicago (Marianne Bertrand) and Harvard University (Sendhil Mullainathan) found in a 2003 study that there was widespread discrimination in the workplace against job applicants whose names were merely perceived as "sounding black." These applicants were 50% less likely than candidates perceived as having "white-sounding names" to receive callbacks for interviews, no matter their level of previous experience."</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
What about Israel's right to self-determination?
[/QUOTE]
I support it, and it doesn't preclude, say, withdrawing to pre-1967 borders.</p>