<p>Thanks a lot for all the parents who provided input to us. We met our guidance counselor and she told us that she thinks that our son has a chance to be admitted to Ivy. She confirmed to us that if admitted our son may have better financial id package from an elite school than a state university. She told us that ED is not for us. Our son needs to apply Early Admission. GC has actually surprised us as mentioned few nice words about our kid. She has all his records in her folder. </p>
<p>However, she has cautioned us that nothing is guaranteed which northstarmom has eloquently spoken. So our kid will try his luck of the draw. GC also informed that in last few years few kids were admitted to Princeton, Yale and Harvard with financial aid. </p>
<p>However, one thing the GC cautioned us about not overlooking factors such as political views available on campus and the environment that allows kids to grow even if mainstream does not agree with them. Fortunately or unfortunately in the house of liberals our kid is a big-time republican. GC knows a lot about our kid than we expected her. Being a debater our son has worked very hard and has participated in many debates and has written in our local newspaper. Over time with the influence of being a boy scouts and associating with other people, our son has views, which are little more rights than most of his age kids. Is this a valid concern?</p>
<p>Is it true that most elite school has students and faculty who are left leaning? How big a concern it will be? Is it just a myth? Which Ivy College will offer him, a more balance environment to learn and expose to him with kids and teachers who respect him for who he is rather than ridiculing him?</p>
<p>Is Princeton or Dartmouth is a lot less liberals than Harvard or Yale? How about Amherst and Williams or Rice or Vanderbilt? </p>
<p>It is an important factor but priority wise it is way below financial aid and opportunity to play sports.</p>
<p>There's no getting away from the leftist political leanings at the elite schools, so you just have to make the best of it. Get a copy of "Choosing the Right College," visit <a href="http://www.thefire.org%5B/url%5D">www.thefire.org</a> , and read the online campus papers to help you make a decision. If I had it to do over again, I would go to Dartmouth--currently one of the most PC Ivies--go to work at the outlawed (but famous) Dartmouth Review--and become the next Laura Ingraham. But that's just me. I'm not familiar with Rice or Vanderbilt, but of the schools you mention, Williams (where my daughter attends) does a pretty good job of encouraging honest debate. Good luck. See the web site below for a general overview of college politics.</p>
<p>Even though it's technically not an ivy, I would suggest looking at Georgetown bc they automatically meet a student's financial need with a combination of loans, grants, and scholarships. They put a cap on how much they'll offer in loans every year so must students graduate with less than $20,000 in debt over four years unless they've relied heavily on private outside loans. Driver is right, most elite schools will be left leaning. But as a Catholic University Gtown does attract a significant amount of right leaning students. Plus being in the DC area, you have your pick of what you want to do and be exposed to.</p>
<p>Who would have thought. With d # 1, political leanings never came into play. We're from NY-"liberal"-Jewish and most of d's schools were "east coast" types with CMU and UVA being the furthest from NY so it was never an issue. We actual have the opposite concern with d # 2. We visited George Mason (a state U in Va) in April. D liked the school and it seems to be an academic "match". But we hear GMU is quite conservative. The day we visited, some old guys were handing out Gideon Bibles (I kid you not). If we hadn't driven from NY to Va. to see GMU, we might have just gotten back in the car but we decided to stay. She liked the school, it seemed promising so we then hunted down the Hillel group. (Jewish student org) They stated that the "Bible Guys" are only on campus once a year and it just so happened to be the day we came. GMU is also big on free speech- which is a good thing. So I guess they give many different political/social groups a "platform" to make their views known. They also had a Lyndon Larouch table set up near the "Bible Guys". I have to admit, I'm not real sure if I would be completely comfortable if my d attends GMU. We will let her apply and we'll see how the admissions process works out. As she is an apolitical/ sports kid, I do not know if she would be affected by a conservative environment. But I do know that she is "a product" of a history major and a political science" major. The next few months are going to be interesting. Just saw post # 3, D # 1 also applied Georgetown. I had no discomfort with that environment.</p>
<p>All the Ivies have very left-leaning faculties and administrations, and most students are Democrats (think about it, where are the Ivies located and where do most of their students come from?), BUT, from my observations visiting schools last year, some of the fastest growing groups on these campuses are the Republicans and more conservative leaning students of various stripes.
Dartmouth may still be one of the most "PC Ivies", but the student body is more conservative to moderate than some of the other Ivies, and the alumni have produced some very prominent (or infamous, depending on your point of view) conservative writers, through the Dart Review.</p>
<p>Redstar, I'm from the DEEEEP South, and generally a conservative, Rep, yada, yada - my daughter's second choice after Dartmouth was Swarthmore! I would not worry about the political atmosphere on campus, unless he begins to consider some schools like Swat and Wesleyan. But even then, I wouldn't let it stop him, if otherwise he loves the school - after all, an important part of college for these super-bright kiddos of ours is to broaden their viewpoints, rattle their cages, even sharpen their rhetoric and give them ammunition for defending their position. In fact, being a conservative on a liberal campus, sounds like a crash learning course on intelligently defending your position.</p>
<p>This is something to think about after all the financial and athletic recruitment cards are on the table - I seem to remember from your earlier post that he was a football player - if he gets recruited too, or even if he walks on, he won't have as much time to be worrying about the Howard Dean/ drown Bush rallies, anyway!</p>
<p>What bothered me more (and truth to tell bothers the students, too) is the living arrangements - ask a lot of questions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In fact, being a conservative on a liberal campus, sounds like a crash learning course on intelligently defending your position.
[/quote]
This is very true. Ann Coulter recently made the point (after the spate of pie-throwing incidents at colleges targeting conservative speakers) that college Republicans are ready to go on talk shows and defend their positions due to their trial by fire. College Democrats, on the other hand [she said], curse and throw food.
[quote]
he won't have as much time to be worrying about the Howard Dean/ drown Bush rallies, anyway!
[/quote]
This is also very true at <em>most</em> schools!</p>
<p>What's the fun of having political views if there's no one to debate? I think your son will thrive and be in high demand by having an outlook outside the status quo. Not only will he be intellectually challenged to defend his position, but he should provide intellectual challenge to the mainstream at these universities.</p>
<p>redstar, although the administrative position is definitely leftward, there are Young Republicans organizations at all of them. Our tour guide at Yale was a member of the Young Republicans as was the student who spoke at the information session at Harvard. If your child is politically conservative, yet open to discourse, he/she should not let an administration's political leanings dissuade him from applying.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned Ann Coulter in the same post about "intelligently defending your position"? As if calling anyone who disagrees with you "treasonous", or has a book called "How to Talk to Liberals... if you Must" can intelligently debate anything without resorting to ad hominem attacks...</p>
<p>That said, I was a grad student at Berkeley... and contrary to stereotypes, there is a very, very vigorous & vocal conservative movement on campus, as well as a plethora of conservative Christian organizations... so even in the "heart of the beast" there are still plenty of people on both sides of any issue...</p>
<p>I think Princeton is a great place for kids interested in politics, because it is really a place where very bright kids on both sides get together, discuss things, challenge one another and learn. As a progressive, I am glad my liberal d has a chance to "cut her teeth" on -- and socialize with -- people of different views. I don't think the dramatic red state/blue state divisions we supposedly have right now are very good for us or for our country. </p>
<p>Recently Princeton students have been protesting the "nuclear option" by "filibustering" in front of the Frist (yep) Student Center. <a href="http://www.filibusterfrist.com%5B/url%5D">http://www.filibusterfrist.com</a>. What was interesting was the 1) not all the protesters were Democrats and 2) students on both sides of the controversy ended up debating on national televison. You can see it all on that website. </p>
<p>The James Madison Program brings in big-name speakers, and students who are accepted as Junior Fellows can go to small receptions with them. Many of these students, though definitely not all, are conservative. <a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/jmadison/%5B/url%5D">http://web.princeton.edu/sites/jmadison/</a> The professor who directs the program is considered one of the best on campus and is known to respect carefully presented views on both sides; he himself is definitely a conservative.</p>
<p>The campus chapters of the Democrats and Republicans are both very active. </p>
<p>The Ivy's are overwhelmingly liberal, with enough of the mainstream people thrown in to allow anyone to find a spot. Southern schools are less liberal, generally. Apply to a cross section and worry about it after you have a choice by being admitted. I don't think its worth making it an application criteria. </p>
<p>For politically ambitious (and especially northeastern) liberals, going to school in the south might allow you later in life to speak publicly without offending more than half the country and/or to successfully run for office. I don't believe a true New Yorker is put off by a couple of guys handing out Bibles :). Imagine what someone visiting Columbia U from Tennessee must think when they come accross Times square, or if they wander into the Village :D </p>
<p>In any case, reminds me of the Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week lyric</p>
<p>"its fun to eulogize the
people you despise,
as long as you dont' let'm
in your school. "</p>
<p>Times Square and the Village is Not Columbia U. There's a difference. If bibles were being given out in Fairfax Va or DC, I don't think it would have even gotten my attention.</p>
<p>The bible guys come once a year to Michigan, too. I think the college population is an attractive target group for them. It doesn't indicate anything about the groups on campus--Michigan has an active Hillel, a large muslim population, etc.</p>
<p>Penn's political leaning among students is definitely left, but there is a strong Republican presence on campus...especially thanks to Wharton. Teachers in the college and the school of engineering are definitely left. Teachers in Wharton run the gamut...I've had both left and right Wharton profs.</p>
<p>I wouldn't worry about political atmosphere at a unversity -- among students there will always be some divergence of opinion and professors should (and I believe most do) reward a well crafted and substantiated argument. Columbia U gets high accolades from the right for its curriculum, though its faculty is predictably liberal, and has a very active Republican group on campus. It's an active school politically and would be great for a debator. On the other hand, it's probably not a great school for a football player unless he doesn't mind losing.:)</p>
<p>I would consider the social atmosphere at a small liberal arts college. (See the thread about adventures of transfer students, for a wonderful description of how the culture at one LAC turned out to be enough to make one student transfer).</p>
<p>Marny1-- We had a Bible-thumping preacher named Hubert who stood at the entrance to Sproul Plaza at Berkeley for years, and loved to get into arguments with students. I wouldn't worry about that, but I would share your concern about the general culture on campus. If your daughter gets in to GMU, I'd definitely recommend she do an overnight or two.</p>
<p>As others have said, I would not worry too much about the political views of the Ivies. I would, however, recommend to visit the schools, if all possible, and get a feel for the atmosphere on campus, as well as develop a general sense for the student body. It is better to find this out WAY before unpacking your car for, what may become, a painful or shocking four years.</p>
<p>For an account how a staunch young republican approached his quest to attend an Ivy with financial aid, you may want to look up the posts of Chinaman. You'll find them refreshing and inspiring. </p>
<p>PS Not all schools are overwhelmingly leftist :)</p>
<p>Thanks a lot all. I am not overly concerned but just asking for help after GC mentioned it. Thanks for the calculator. Through this forum, I am learning a lot. Can someone point some good books on these subjects? By the way my son got approval for the Eagle Scout project from the council, which he hopes to complete this summer. </p>
<p>We have huge discussions on dinner table about the current political scenarios. </p>
<p>Xiggi: thanks. I will look up the posts by chinaman.</p>