Pomona College vs Johns Hopkins

College Search & Selection
1

I recently was admitted off the waitlist for Pomona. I’m extremely grateful to be in this position but it also presents a difficult choice. If anyone could give their opinion about both schools, I would really appreciate your suggestions!

Intended major: some combination of Computer Science, Cognitive Science, Linguistics, Philosophy

Pomona: Diversity; intimate feel and culture with the student body and professors while having resources/research of the large school (Claremont consortium); small classes and priority for undergrads; very good location/vibes and laid back (higher quality of life); strong academics in neuroscience, math etc; high endowment per student.

JHU: More recognition everywhere? (I might not want to stay on the west coast to work. personally, I don’t care about prestige but it is what some people consider); stronger alumni network; however the location is a minus, I really didn’t like Baltimore that much when I visited; a larger school with more opportunities and more qualified faculty (not sure how accessible they are considering profs are spread thin over their research and grad, postdoc students)? cut-throat from quite a few people I talked to? have one of the best natural language processing research center and a center for leadership education where I can do stuff like entrepreneurship. (I’m not sure whether I need to learn business or management as an undergrad; I can always learn this later)

Both schools cost about the same. So this is not a differentiating factor. I’m planning to do grad school and go into something in artificial intelligence, or work as a consultant in the field. Not quite sure. I think it’s important to note I’m Canadian so I might come to Toronto to do AI stuff at the Vectors Institute since Canada really wants to develop their tech industry.

Again I’m not 100% sure of my understandings; these are simply what I heard from talking to students, parents etc. I really value everyones opinion, and if any AOs wants to chime in that would be awesome.
Thanks again!

2

Probably due to a large number of pre-meds there. But it looks like your majors of interest are not the ones that tend to attract that many pre-meds, and you do not appear to be a pre-med.

3

Neuroscience attracts tons of pre-meds. The pre-med mindset will affect your experience at either school, but probably more so at JHU where it is the reason so many seek out the school. CogSci not quite as pre-med dominated as neuroscience, because many CogSci majors are more oriented toward Linguistics and/or CompSci. Pomona has a joint department of CogSci and Linguistics, and offers a computation-oriented track of the CogSci major. Being in the consortium with Harvey Mudd further deepens the CS and AI offerings. But JHU is strong in CompSci too.

Both schools have strong departments in all of your areas of interest. And I don’t think you have to worry about the strength of Pomona’s reputation within any academic or academic-adjacent community. Neither should inherently advantage or disadvantage you for grad school admissions relative to the other.

As you know, the vibes and environments are much different. I think it’s safe to say that Pomona is more nurturing and undergrad-focused, whereas Hopkins will have more going on at the graduate level if you want the exposure to that. It’s a least a clear choice between two distinctly different experiences! Both top-notch - congrats on having this tough decision to make!

4

@aquapt thank you for your insight. How about Pomona outside the academic community? Eventually I will not be in school. Or does the undergrad reputation not matter as much as grad school?

5

People who know colleges at all know the top LAC’s - Williams, Amherst, Pomona, etc.

People who don’t know colleges have still heard of HYPS and the like. They’ve heard of Hopkins because of the med school, but they will call it “John Hopkins” until your ears bleed. :slight_smile:

Once you go to grad school, it will be the reputation of the grad school that will matter anyway, other than the occasional person who will bond over the undergrad school because they or someone in their family went there too.

There are reasons you might want to choose Hopkins over Pomona, but the name recognition isn’t a great reason IMHO. Neither school is lacking anything vis-a-vis reputation.

6

Mudd recently put some limits on CS electives due to the overwhelming number of non-Mudd students taking CS classes at Mudd. I wouldn’t count too heavily on taking many CS classes at Mudd.

7

@aquapt ok I see. Im curious whether you are a parent? You seem very experienced.
@intparent thanks for the info. Is there any way to get around it? And also what do you think of my situation?

8

Yes, I’m a parent of a Scripps student and a Rice alum. (Hence the logo mashup) But I’ve known about Pomona for a long time. One of my best friends in HS (on the east coast) went to Pomona for undergrad and is now a Dean at a top 20 University. It has been a top-notch school for a very long time. I don’t have much direct experience with JHU, though, other than friends who went there for medical-related postgrad programs.

Yes, the popularity of CS programs at Mudd and Pomona has led to staffing and course-registration issues. Majors get priority for required classes, but not for additional electives beyond the requirements, and people are understandably unhappy about this. Hopefully some solutions will be found, but it is an issue.

9

I would call these roughly equally prestigious among people in the US who know colleges. It sounds like you aren’t dwelling on rep, which is good – I just wanted to throw that out there for anyone else reading, who does care.

They are so different that if you figure out your main preferences – things most important to you – you’ll pick the place that presents the better fit.

Key differences – bear in mind that some of these are typical in a U vs. LAC matchup and should not be thought to reflect poorly on Hopkins or Pomona per se:

  • Pomona will have smaller classes, especially in survey-level courses, and easier access to profs.
  • JHU offers more majors and classes (compare Pomona's class offerings to see how they compare in terms of breadth -- I'll assume both schools offer the majors you listed above...)
  • JHU has some D1 sports and far more research opportunities... but also far more competition for coveted research spots. (JHU does have the #1 research budget in the US, a plus if that might interest you; but available research at Pomona, meager as it is by comparison, is far more likely to go to undergrads).
  • Hopkins has an urban setting, while Pomona is more small town/suburban.
  • Weather: four seasons vs. the southern california season.
  • Hopkins does have a rep for competitiveness, but that is bound to be the case wherever pre-med is so popular. Pomona, by virtue of its less pre-professional vibe (typical of LAC vs. U...), is bound to be less competitive overall. But that doesn't mean the kids majoring in whatever you choose will be more or less competitive at either school.

These are just some of the things you might consider. I would put academic fit first: majors, classes, distribution requirements/curricular style, class sizes, overall vibe if you can get a handle on it, etc. After that, think about the environment/setting and social vibe, dorms, etc.

10

I’m not sure it is fair to say JHU offers more classes given the ability to cross register at the 5Cs. With the exception of a few areas (CS electives at Mudd right now and some art classes), I’ve not heard of students unable to get the cross registration courses they want. Of course, you still have the issue that you’d have at all colleges — frosh and soph register later and get slimmer pickings. But JHU has that, too.

No, I don’t think there is a way around the CS electives issue at Mudd. It isn’t clear what all the steps are that will be taken to resolve it, and they are working on it, but it is possible that Mudd students might have an edge in getting those courses in the next couple of years.

I don’t have much opinion beyond that.

11

@intparent by opinion I mean which you would pick if in my shoes?

12

That is what I meant. I don’t have an opinion. :slight_smile:

13

I’m a mom and a Pomona alumna. If you’re interested in participating in research, Pomona will provide extraordinary opportunities, and you will be able to work directly with faculty. You might take a look at the faculty bios in your departments of interest to see what you think of the people you’ll be interacting with. If you’re an ideas person who likes to ask and answer questions and be challenged to develop your own theories, Pomona is a good fit. If you feel comfortable with, and are invigorated by the idea of developing a personal rapport with esteemed faculty, Pomona is a good fit. I still visit with my favorite faculty mentor over 20 years later. The cross-registration is indeed a cool feature of the Claremonts. Each school does have its personality and reputation behind it, but all the schools are strong, selective, and well-resourced, so it’s a powerhouse there. There’s one central main library for all the schools, one campus ministry center, one student health/counseling center, one main bookstore, one student newspaper.

Have you visited Claremont? It’s very suburban and not particularly stimulating. You can easily walk to the adjacent “Village” which has a movie theater, coffee shops, and restaurants, and it’s cute and pleasant but nothing that’s really going to ignite any curiosity or provide a lot of opportunities. The surrounding suburbs are even more ho-hum. So there’s really nothing particularly advantageous about the environs there other than it’s a convenient climate that doesn’t impact your life much except for some days in the fall when you will wish you had air conditioning. But if you don’t love Baltimore, then that’s not a real factor I suppose. In my era, Pomona was relatively weak on career development and tended to send many students to either graduate school for PhDs/academia or med school, and the main supported direct placement into full-time jobs was the management consulting route. There were pockets of weak departments and some use of questionable part-time faculty for classes like calculus – but that’s old data so not worth much. All the Claremont schools talk about internship opportunities but be aware that “Los Angeles” is a solid hour by train from Claremont, so this resource has some challenges built in. Pomona places a strong emphasis on diversity and most of the community there are students of color. In that, it feels very similar to southern California as a whole, where there’s no one racial majority.

It’s the most selective liberal arts college in the nation with a huge endowment. Still, most everyday people on the street will not have heard of it, so if you want that nod of recognition when making small talk, Pomona isn’t the one. Having said all these things, I’d choose Pomona again based primarily on one key principle: it’s devoted to undergraduates. I think it makes sense to attend the school that is all about undergrads when an undergrad, then attend a grad school where grad students are a priority. In all, you’re in a great and enviable position – congratulations and good luck!

14

I’m the parent of a Pomona rising senior, and I’ll stick up for the village of Claremont as a nice albeit suburban town. Here’s a map. http://www.thevillageclaremont.com/map.html. I’m tagging @nostalgicwisdom for more feedback. I will say that the Pomona CS Department is struggling with the same issues as HMC’s, which is demand that exceeds the amount of faculty available. Basically you have to be a CS major to have the necessary priority to get in classes. They will hold spaces in the introductory classes for the incoming freshmen, but after that you’d better declare a CS major asap.

My D is an Econ major who is trying to complete a CS minor and she was shut out of the class she wanted last Spring semester as a junior. Generally cross-registration is easy and seamless but be aware that for your major some departments will require that you complete certain courses at Pomona (e.g., the Econ department requires that you take the 6 core classes for the major at Pomona). My D is currently doing an internship one of the Federal Reserve Banks. She’s only been there a few days but her boss, a senior Research Economist at the Fed, told her that she is on the “right tail” in terms of the amount of research experience that his interns have had.

15

@SDCounty3Mom I have visited mudd last summer and passed by Pomona but didn’t have time to do the tour. I absolutely love the laid-back, neat, cultured environment. I’m fine with not going to schools. thank you for input!

@Corinthian I think I will major in cs so that should be fine. How easy is a double major?

16

Even CS majors at Mudd (who are Mudd students) have limitations on electives at the moment. Declaring a CS major isn’t a fix for the issue mentioned above. The issue is being worked on, and likely will be better by the time the OP is a junior and is ready for more electives, but it is something to be aware of.

17

One non-academic insight: For international students, I’m a big fan of the East Coast. Unlike California, it has an extensive public transportation system that would allow you to explore Washington DC, New York, Boston – some of the most dynamic cities in the U.S. in addition much of the east coast seaboard. My daughter - raised in Western U.S. - loved her opportunities to explore this part of the country. Without a car.

18

Congratulations on getting off the waitlist. I’m a 2016 Pomona grad, so I can give you some specific, current insights.

All of the fields you are interested in are excellent at Pomona, and a liberal arts college and community can be a particularly stimulating way to explore numerous disciplines and connect readily with people across different interests.

It sounds like your long-term goal is a career within computer science. Here’s a look at the pros and cons of Pomona’s CS at present:

Pros:

  • The community of students, faculty, and alumni is exceptional. People look out for one another and are encouraging, supportive, and kind. Your feedback is taken seriously and whenever you need help or advising, there is a lot of receptiveness to that.
  • Prepares you well academically for graduate school. Pomona is one of the top feeder schools on a per capita basis to computer science PhD programs. In fact, many people who are presently at grad school have told me the teaching and individual attention is clearly far above that of the major university they are a part of (in their own classes and in their TA capacities for undergrads there).
  • Excellent outcomes. Whether you want to go to a reputable graduate program or top notch industry job, Pomona will help you get there. I've never heard of anyone having difficulty on this regard. The Claremont Colleges are collectively seen as a target school by many tech companies, and ample on-campus recruiting and interviews make it easy to land a job or internship. Many of my friends leave with six figure salaries straight after graduation in many of the famous tech companies. For graduate school, I can't think of anyone who didn't end up at a top 10 program (MIT, Berkeley, Cornell, etc). Pomona is also one of the top schools for students getting STEM fellowships like the NSF, Goldwater, Churchill, etc.
  • Easy to engage with research and get funding for internships, independent projects, conferences, etc. This is just true for Pomona in general- there is a lot of money and programs designed to help students fund whatever they are passionate about. Harvey Mudd has a 5 college summer computer science research program as well.

Mixed:

  • Doing internships in LA. There are a surprising number of tech companies within the metro area, so theoretically, that would enable students to gain other experiences during the year. Most of them are in West LA/Santa Monica, however, which is quite far from Claremont (50 miles or so). Public transportation will take you 2.5 hours each way, so it’s pretty necessary to have a car. But then you have to deal with LA traffic. There are a couple of tech experiences a bit closer- Pasadena, Downtown LA, USC Innovation Lab. Getting to DTLA from Claremont via public transportation is pretty straightforward.

Cons:

  • Classes are not as small as they are in other departments of the college. Pomona’s average class size is 15, but it is difficult to find a CS class with fewer than 25 students. That said, almost none tend to be over 50 either, and even in larger classes professors take the time to know the students individually.
  • Lots of interest, but not the most ideal set-up to accommodate it. Getting into CS classes is tough if you're a non-major (they advise students to declare immediately upon arriving). If you're a CS major, you'll definitely have priority in order to graduate with the degree within four years, but many popular electives can be locked out. Pomona did just hire 2 more full time faculty, so hopefully that helps a bit. Mudd is presently in their own crisis for CS and honestly, there's a lot of uncertainty about what will happen. I think you can count on Mudd if you want to do research with a professor there, but if you want to get into a specific course, it's probably going to be a lottery (for them and for us).
  • The emphasis is pretty theoretical and isn't the sort of pre-professional, project based work that you would want to present to someone in the industry. Students and liaisons step in to cover that aspect (hackathons, student led teaching, collaborative service-based projects, etc), but the department itself is very academic. One way to alleviate this is to do Harvey Mudd's Computer Science Clinic, in which you do an industry-based project as your senior thesis. It's open to CS students regardless of home school. Most students will intern in their summers while doing research during the school year at Pomona, allowing them to be prepared both for academia and for the industry.
  • Smaller course selection within CS- at the end of the day, most of your experiences will be coming from Pomona, and it's a small school with just 1600 students and 240 professors in total.

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You mentioned Johns Hopkins’s stronger alumni network. I have a close friend at JHU, and that’s actually one of her biggest complaints with the school. She said that it can be difficult as an undergrad to benefit from alumni experiences. All of the various constituent colleges like Bloomberg, Med School, etc. have independent identities. I think what you’re referring to is that JHU is a larger school, so the alumni reach is much bigger. But in terms of actually connecting to alums and being advised from them, I feel like a small LAC like Pomona fosters a special dynamic to give back. Forbes says that 31% of Pomona grads donate, ranking it #25 for “Most Grateful Grads”, while JHU is 13% and ranks #48. I’ve seen a lot of my CS classmates come back to Pomona to seek out interns for the companies they’re working at, and there’s also a larger network of 5C alums eager to support one another! So you’re not only looking at people from Pomona, but from Mudd, Scripps, Pitzer, and CMC as well who you can reach out to.

That said, JHU is definitely more well-known, and is a world-class research university. I believe their philosophy department was just given a $75 million dollar gift. And it seems you’ve identified specific facilities that excite you. So I can see the dilemma.

Obviously, I’d pick Pomona, but I’m biased. But I think if you’re confident about graduate school, Pomona can help launch you to the best ones out there (and the top facilities involved with them) while giving you a transformative, once in a lifetime liberal arts college experience. Pomona is known for its rigorous academics coupled with a high quality of life & happy students. The Claremont Colleges really enrich the experience and help the school feel larger and more exciting. I’m looking at a website of ratings based on student reviews, and out of 10 (the maximum):

Johns Hopkins vs Pomona-
Education Quality: 8.4 vs 8.8
Individual Focus: 6.6 vs 9.1
Collaboration: 6.6 vs 8.9
Friendliness: 7.4 vs 9.2
Faculty Accessibility: 7.3 vs 9.3
Social Life: 6.0 vs 7.5
Scholastic Success: 7.7 vs 8.9
Extracurricular Activities: 7.0 vs 8.0
University Resources: 7.3 vs 8.5

On another website:

Overall Experience at Pomona- 4.65/5
Overall Experience at Johns Hopkins- 4.04/5

It seems that students are more content at Pomona :slight_smile:

Good luck with your decision- there are pros and cons to both. They’re almost opposites of each other to an extent, but you’re sure to have a great experience either way!

19

My daughter sat in on a bunch of engineering classes at JHU and was pleasantly surprised with how relaxed the vibe was and the report students had with their professor. It was a week before exams and no one seemed particularly stressed and there were lots of smiles and laughter. Baltimore is a pretty cool city that gets a bad rap but there is lots to do, great museums that actual abut campus, and free transportation to Inner Harbor. It’s also an easy trip to DC.

20

Oh, and since you mentioned double majoring- it’s pretty straightforward. You can major in any of Pomona’s 48 areas regardless of experience. One thing is that our majors require more courses than those at peer LACs, so you want to plan it out and let your advisers/department chairs know in order to fit everything in within four years. You can see some specific data here: http://www.pomona.edu/administration/office-registrar/reports-and-statistics/majors-and-minors (click the Double Majors tab). I see that CS/Linguistics and CS/Philosophy has been completed in the past.