Poor and not complaining

Paying for College
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<p>There are select prestigious schools that give free schooling, such as Harvard if your income is <40k.</p>

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<p>pp000441, I agree with you about the low-income parents and the difficulties faced when applying to college. Try this, I live with my 26 year old unemployed brother and my mom. She works ten hour days 6 days a week making less than 12k a year. However, we manage. Actually, I'm quite lucky because I'm an American. There are so many advantages to being poor in America and you really do receive so much help with grants and scholarships. </p>

<p>With the right research skills, you can really afford any school. Scholarships are offered all the time and it only takes time and dedication to find and complete them.</p>

<p>Like SusieQ2007 says, there are plenty of really GREAT schools that will give you a free ride. (Private institutions WILL want you because it makes them seem socioeconomically diverse) I am going to Pomona College next year. No loans. I pay $500 next year for a $40k school. </p>

<p>I do feel that sometimes richer families take many things for granted, but that is their life.</p>

<p>There is always a way. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Yes, Harvard did start a new program like that this year. Several other schools offer a similar deal... I think Yale is one. Many upper-tier schools also pledge to meet 100% of your need. But kids who qualify for Harvard's new program or have a gigantic need are not the kinds of kids / their parents being discussed in this thread.</p>

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<p>My son got wonderful offers from Vandy and U of Alabama but Harvey Mudd and Rice expected him to borrow about 5 thousand a year. Our income was under 40 thousand, pretty low anywhere you live. I know he'll be fine wherever he goes -- but it's so hard to make the decision. I've heard that there are always lots of unexpected costs, too. I had heard that you can sometimes negociate with the financial aid people but when I tryed to talk to Rice they brushed me off quickly.</p>

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<p>


I completely agree.</p>

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<p>gphoenix said: "be compassionate and understanding of everyone"</p>

<p>-Yes, especially to those who have demonstrated a lack of compassion by believing their paltry 60,000 - 100,000 a year is at least as problematic when it comes to paying for college as my grand 13,800 a year.</p>

<p>But understanding is asked and granted.
We must strive to understand the prevalency of a dyslexia that seems to rise with proportion to one's EFC, for when they see 'EFC' in its unabbreviated form, they take the word 'ex PEC ted' to actually be the word 'ex CEP ted" and thus believe the resulting number to be what they should not have to pay. Do not they not deserve pity?</p>

<p>seriously though,
chelsea 2005 said: please remember that the people here do not earn 100,000+, but rather their parents do.</p>

<p>Yeah, and please remember that Prince Harry doesn't make millions in the stock market, but rather his father does.</p>

<p>C'mon people, they are 'dependant' on their parents' expected contribution - if this EFC calculation is screwing deserving kids out of free college money, then it is screwing undeserving kids as well...it only discriminates against those who CAN AFFORD college.</p>

<p>The same post says "it is a burden for everyone," which is total bull. I refuse to believe that EVERYONE is BURDENED by college. And NO, I'm not talking about rich persons who can afford any college.</p>

<p>Most low income are truly "excepted" from college; you tell them to raise only 5,000 to cover the rest of the cost for a year at state school and it might as well be 5 million.
If that seems asinine and obnoxiously false to you, then you are lucky enough to have the chance to bear the burden, light or heavy.</p>

<p>I know I'm being a cantankerous SOB and some suggest that I not harangue or provoke guilt in every child of a middle-class family whose EFC (a "generalizing" tool) would cover most of the cost, since they are not to blame....If they would stop trying to convince others that they have it just as hard as those with a lot less money, they would appear 100 hundred times wiser.</p>

<p>Yeah, yeah I'll shut up too...</p>

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<p>Writingwell, I don't think anyone is complaining about low income families getting generous financial aid. That is understood. The category of kids, however, who have the hardest time with college finances, however, are those whose parents do not support this venture, regardless of income and assets. Doesn't help a kid who is a dependent if the parents blow all their money and just can't get around to completing that FAFSA (many times it doesn't matter, there would be too much money to get any aid). The fact that undergraduates are tied to their parents' financial apron strings well past the age that they are adults for everything out seems illegal to me. Some strong lobbies here for the colleges, cuz it would really put this system on its ear, to change that. Colleges are so danged santimonious about giving out medical, academic, discipline, any info to the parents because of the "adult" thing, but the parents have to fill out those financial forms and pay those bills purely because they know most kids don't have the money. </p>

<p>I have seen kids who are top student from very poor families, where the family is going to lose substantial income since the kid works and earns towards the family wages, and also does alot of necessary things for the parents, go off to college with the family sucking it down as painful as it may be. I have seen kids with well to do parents, have to wing it, because they won't fill out the forms, won't pay for every reason under the sun. Which family would you prefer to be yours? Kids love their parents and it hurts when they cannot or will not help out for college when the numbers say they can. And I don't mean families who have worked out the budgets, the numbers and the family well being, and come up with a plan that may preclude the expensive schools. I mean families that just won't face the issue, and stick their heads in the sand. I have seen fathers working 3 jobs, the mothers 2, the family sharing a sub standard place with other families so that their kid can go to a better school, get music lessons, get tutoring and test prep, and yes, go to a top school. Those parents, economically deprived as they are, will move heaven and earth for higher education. What to say about them? When another parent doesn't want to give up a nice, up scale house, or drive a used car or make the financial sacrifices that college tuition often takes, which child has it harder?</p>

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<p>A wonderful post!</p>

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<p>Nothing I could say about them. Their actions are beyond words.</p>

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<p>Generally, this child will never understand that his parents' chose a standard of living without factoring in the cost of college. They will only get as far as realizing that their parents make too much money saying such ignorant things like "I don't understand, it's not like we drive expensive cars or live in a big house." These same kids drive pre-owned corollas and tercels that mom and dad bought for them, and this is seen as "standard." Spending over 500 dollars on a TV is now "standard" And I'm sorry but anyone who cannot afford to save college money while living in several Bay area and southern California cities that are beyond belief expensive should ask themselves why going to a good private school seems to go hand in hand with spending more money on everything else that is unrelated to your child's education. It's amazing that people think they are being frugal by living within their means, while their means slowly increases.</p>

<p>I'm way off topic and Dr. Faustus keeps calling me, but I would guess the child with selfish parents lives in a nicer area that has nicer schools, which helps them be more competitive for merit scholarships and indoctrinates them with the idea that any student can go to college and it would be a waste not to go....in other words they at least have hope.....</p>

<p>good points though...I hope parents begin to see how much pressure they put on children who are just shy of being among the best in their class-The "strong B and low A" students. Those students will usually do better in college than those A genius types that find everything easy.</p>

<p>Because this is a fact - I don't care how difficult you THINK your public high school may be, any fool with half a brain and a few hours to study each day can do well in high school. Any eighth grader from Mexico City has already studied pre-calculus, something some high schoolers here never even take. </p>

<p>The point is, high school performance is a poor indicator of performance, SAT almost as bad.</p>

<p>Your precious straight A geniuses who hardly ever need to study will be shocked when they need to actually learn something, and I know for a fact, myself being one of these idiot-savants, that they are much more likely to drop out of college than those B students who struggled a little bit, but developed some decent study habits.</p>

<p>Having been in community college for years and YEARS, I wish someone, a professional tutor or other qualified type, would have sat down with me and showed me the right way to study.</p>

<p>$400-$600 spent on a few weeks of intense instruction on "how to study" over the summer before I enrolled in college could've have helped me graduate sooner, while avoiding the waste of money from having to drop courses here and there because I was academically lazy.</p>

<p>really another topic i guess, but I just want parents to trust their instincts regarding their children and if they don't know what kind of students they are, they may be unhappily surprised...cuz SATs and high grades in high school don't mean squat next to discipline and a mature attitude towards the learning process.</p>

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<p>There are too few of these, and too many parents who haven't given much thought to the cost of college or how profound the impact of attending the "right" college can be on their child's life. (By "right", I mean a school that fits the student's needs and maximum intellectual and personal development, not necessarily a top-ranked or elite college.)</p>

<p>A major flaw in the financial aid system is that families that have saved for college, on average, end up paying more than families that haven't. There's no easy solution, since financial aid officers can't do a lifestyle analysis and conclude which families should get extra credit for frugality. They can just run the numbers and evaluate the family's current ability to pay.</p>

<p>A year or two ago, I wrote an article, Are</a> Savers Victimized?, that talks about the ants vs. grasshoppers issue. All things being equal, as a parent I'd greatly prefer to have the cash in the bank to pay for the full cost of college - but my "cost" is likely to be higher than that of a family lacking that resource.</p>

<p>I don't think this needs to be a "class warfare" issue. At most schools, financial aid isn't a zero-sum game in which individual applicants vie with other individual applicants for dollars (although the "big picture" may involve an overall budget for aid).</p>

<p>Knowing a single number, like gross income, tells one next to nothing about a family's current ability to pay for college, and it's foolish to speculate as to how "deserving" of aid another family is. If it was that simple, colleges wouldn't require FAFSAs, Profiles, personal tax returns, business financials, and all the other documentation.</p>

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<p>Those who are economically deprived usually have many other issues overriding college decisions and college financials, in my experience, and those truly deprived are not in the running for selective colleges for the most part. That is a whole different problem. And I am not convinced that those parents who are in that category, or any economic category who will move heaven and earth for higher education are necessary setting the right priorities either. However, excellent student from this small subset of families are at a definite advantage in the selective college admissions over those who have families who are not interested or involved in the next step after high school. </p>

<p>Though there is a saver's penalty the way financial aid works, I too fully agree that the flexibility and choices available to those who have money saved is well worth the possibility that you may get penalized in financial aid. The reality is that few colleges give 100% of need, and those tend to be the more selective schools. I would not bank that my kid would get into one of those schools, nor would I want to be dependent on what that school considers is a reasonable package. I have seen some truly debt laden aid packages from some elite schools. Whatever you can save and bring to the table is an advantage, in my opinion. </p>

<p>Another problem with financial aid methodology is that it is pretty much a single snapshot. It does not take into account financail history even with all of those forms. But I doubt any method used, given a fixed amount of funds is going to help more students.</p>

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<p>"please remember that the people here do not earn 100,000+, but rather their parents do."</p>

<p>yes, i am quoting myself. :)
we like to assume that parents with this income (100,000+) are willing and able to pay for their children's education. unfortunately, this is not true. families SHOULD help pay for their children's education if possible; however they are in no way required to do so. once the child is 18, he or she is an independent adult. sadly, many parents view this as a free ticket to financial freedom from their children.</p>

<p>Quote "The same post says "it is a burden for everyone," which is total bull. I refuse to believe that EVERYONE is BURDENED by college. And NO, I'm not talking about rich persons who can afford any college."</p>

<p>-what is so wrong with my statement that "it is a burden for everyone"? it is! paying for anything often involves sacrifices, whether or not you see it. in stating this, i was trying to tactfully state that everyone paying for college makes sacrifices. i am suggesting that none of us are in the position to make judgement on other people's financial situations, especially people we have never even met. i empathize for all people paying for college, especially those with lower incomes.</p>

<p>"If they would stop trying to convince others that they have it just as hard as those with a lot less money, they would appear 100 hundred times wiser."</p>

<ul>
<li>i never tried to convince you that i have it "just are hard as those with a lot less money". i just wanted you to realize that you have no right to judge my financial situation, just as i have no right to judge yours. we are all in this together. and as i suggested before, there can be extenuating circumstances which you do know about.</li>
</ul>

<p>In Conclusion: I feel for all of those paying for college, poor and rich alike. I suggest that instead of complaining about our financial situations, we do something proactive. </p>

<p>by the way, i am the oldest of seven children. i am "middle class". my dad works for the fire department, and my mom stays home to homeschooling my younger siblings. we live frugally, no cable and we eat out MAYBE once a month. my parents expect me to pay for over half of my college. i am in no way complaining, but rather i am trying to explain where i am coming from.
good luck and god bless to all those going to and paying for college.</p>

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<p>Sorry if my previous post seemed to be directly aimed at your financial situation - I was only using your words as a reference point to discuss attitudes towards financial aid. This is not to say I wasn't attacking your opinions (I clearly was). You are free to judge my opinions as readily as I judge yours.</p>

<p>So allow me to clarify.</p>

<p>When you say, "please remember that the people here do not earn 100,000+, but rather their parents do," you are stating more than a fact. Clearly, some people on this board don't make 100,000+, but their parents do. I thought you were saying that a parent's income shouldn't be considered when evaluating a dependant's ability to pay.</p>

<p>In your response, you question the assumption that parents with incomes of 100k+ are "willing and able" to pay. I wouldn't know how many are actually willing or grudgingly write checks for tuition. That would require a silly CNN poll to answer, and is separate from what I think we clearly agree on, which is that They SHOULD be willing, if they are able. The only wrinkle in this would be a child screwing up so badly that the parents become ethically opposed to paying. Obviously, there are exceptions (maybe for families with 7 kids, phew!), but you can't make a rule of exceptions. This is probably not a good audience, since many on this board are "exceptions" and come here to discuss their concerns. But I see no danger in saying that most parents with 100k+ income are able to pay for college. Maybe not all expenses for Harvard! or Stanford! if they are closer to only the 100k mark. </p>

<p>And I guess they aren't "required to do so" in the sense that the govt. wont garnish their wages automatically if their child decides to attend a college (Wouldn't that be funny?!) But the FAFSA looks at the EFC as a requirement to pay a certain amount based on a financial situation.</p>

<p>Plus, a child of 18 being called an "independent adult" doesn't apply to every sphere of life. For the FAFSA you are not independent until you are 24 (barring their limited exceptions). I would agree that this standard is stupid and was probably based on funding levels. It'd be nice to raise taxes so that this standard could be lowered, but having lived in Oxford for a little while, I was able to see how cheap we Americans are when it comes to paying taxes. The American way is to attack many problems individually (and pay much more), rather than become part of a group funding effort (and pay less).</p>

<p>I guess my problem is with people thinking their EFC has no basis in reality. I think it's their views on standards of living that have no basis in reality.</p>

<p>As far as judging goes, the people at the UCI FA office have never met me, yet they judged my financial situation and determined my level of aid. Am I not endowed with the same ability to consider information and make judgments? When did we become so afraid of making judgments? It's not like judgments are set in stone; they CAN change based on new information. I hear some saying "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - yes, that means judge not, UNLESS you are prepared to judged. Well, I judge myself by the same standards that I judge others.</p>

<p>The EFC is like a judge. Maybe a little neurotic,but not insane.</p>

<p>Having no "right" to judge implies having no "right" to wonder what other lives must be like. Yes, one can never fully know until they live that other life, but to suggest that there is nothing one can know until that happens...Well, why do I read so many books? I remain open to new information and revise my judgments constantly. </p>

<p>Obviously, your mother and father work hard raising 7 kids, and I'm sure you're able to judge for yourself if my judgments apply to you.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry..but my liberal leanings aside...I've gotta say that if you make 100-150K, you really get screwed over by need-based fin aid. At almost every ivy league school, if you are poor and you are admitted, you don't have to pay virtually anyting for college. Compare that to me, my (single) mom doesn't even make six figures, but they wanted her to pay 1/3 of her income out of pocket. My mom has worked very hard to get where she is, and I worked very hard to get into schools like Dartmouth, WashU and Cornell. The fin aid thing was like a punch in the stomach. I'm going to Umich, where they gave me merit aid.</p>

<p>The need-based system unintentionally penalizes people who have worked hard and played by the rules. I'm not talking about the super rich, but people who make too much to qualify for all that plum need-based aid (Pell grants etc) but make too little to write huge checks for college. Also consider that many outside scholarships use the same wrong-headed need-based formulas that colleges do. </p>

<p>Lesson to my kids...either be filthy rich or dirt poor.</p>

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<p>Let's quite stereotyping families based on the number of digits in their income. As has been pointed out, there are a ridiculous number of factors that the OP neglected to consider. I find your "I can't afford an elite college - so anyone who makes more than me shouldn't complain"-argument far too simplistic and in many ways offensive. Let the colleges worry about distributing the aid - it's their job, not yours.</p>

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<p>But as consumers of higher education, do we not have the right to demand the best deal, especially if we have traits that colleges have demand for. The reason need-based aid penalizes the middle class so much is because we are too shy to complain.</p>

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<p>Mchllhcm,</p>

<p>I'm curious, not trying to be mean. You say your mom works 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. I assume you mean she is employed for that number of hours. If she works the usual 50 weeks per year, she is putting in 3000 hours at work. You say she makes less than $12,000 per year. If I am doing my math correctly, she earns $4.00 per hour. If you do not mind my asking, what sort of job does she do that pays so poorly? McDonalds in my area, which is not an area of the country with a high cost of living, pays $8.00 an hour.</p>

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<p>Lots of people ask that. She is a hairstylist in an asian plaza working for an asian salon. They pay cash and we pretty much live off the tips that she makes. No vacations, no insurance, pensions or anything. It's just work. They don't pay hourly wages there. It's a system of commission where she gets 60% of the profits from hair cuts and the store receives the rest. Some days she doesn't make more than $80 other days she makes more than $300. That is without the cut, too. She doesn't feel comfortable working for american places like SuperCuts.</p>

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<p>mchllhcm, When I went to college(years ago), my mom was disable, therefore did not work. I ended up with 4 scholarships(I remember 1 from Elks Club), not much, but it did put money in my pocket. On top of the fact that because my mom was poor, I received Cal Grant, etc.. When you're technically poor, there are ways to get free money.</p>

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<p>Mchllhcm,
Thank you for your reply. I now understand your mom's situation a bit better. I wish I could help her long distance. I wish I could help her feel more comfortable working in a non-Asian extablishment that would offer her better pay and benefits. I hope that some day she will choose to step out of her comfort zone and make some changes that could make her life easier. Good luck to you and your family.</p>

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<p>Kb54010. tje "problem" of having too much money for financial aid is a very easy one to fix. No family has to hold onto assets or keep a high paying job. Just get rid of all of the trappings that make you ineligible for financial aid. It's as simple as that. Those who have a house that makes them ineligible for aid--get rid of the house and live like those who are getting the aid, that don't have the house. This is really an easy problem to resolve.</p>

<p>I don't recommend that route, having lived it myself. My H was a post graduate for many years, and we lived near a lot of families in the same boat as ours. We did not feel poor and our cultural lives were as rich or richer than many with much more money as we lived in the back yard of a college community in a city with many free and nearly free activities. But there are a lot of amentiies money can buy and I can tell you standing in line for aid when getting into a program, getting music lessons or the such for your kid is totally dependent on getting money from the program is really no fun. Much easier to write that check and go on an austerity regiment. Heck, we were already on a stringent austerity regiment, and still had no money for extras. There are a lot of families who have made the decision to forego higher incomes and have little in assets but they are well educated and have a lot of interest in cultural experiences. You can join one of those clusters and take your chances with financial aid and see how much of a "free ride" you end up getting. I don't think it is worth it.</p>