poor chance of getting into a decent PhD program in electrical engineering

Graduate School
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<p>Hi. I'm on the verge of trying to change careers and I've realized that electrical engineering is something that I want to return to. More specifically, I want an EE career in academics/research. A PhD is what I'll utimately require but I'm anxious that my poor grades in school will be a hurdle in PhD admissions. </p>

<p>My educational credentials are as follows: </p>

<p>BS degree in electrical engineering -- 2.9 GPA, but from a top 35 national univ. </p>

<p>DDS degree from dental school -- 2.8 GPA ( note: I know this is an even poorer gpa but many subjects in dental school overlap with those in medical school. It's not uncommon to see low gpas in medical/dental schools, where there are students who are content with merely passing. I'm hoping for an understanding from the admissions committees )</p>

<p>General Practice Residency ( in dentistry ) from the largest municipal hospital in NY</p>

<p>It's been a while since I've been to college, and I never developed any rapport while I was there. I expect mediocre letters of rec from my former engineering professors at undergrad. ( maybe even none? ) I don't even have any actual EE work experience. I doubt any EE employers would take me, since my EE skills aren't up-to-date and I don't have any former experience. </p>

<p>I know that exceptional GRE results can change my outlook somewhat but I don't want to take it if my overall competitiveness is low enough to make my effort look vain. </p>

<p>So... at face value, how competitive do I appear for PhD admissions in an EE program? What should I do? </p>

<p>Also, I would like to get into a top 50 program. The PhD job market for EEs are less than modest, and a PhD from a weak program can actually worsen one's outlook in the fields of academics/research. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>Why don't you try for a masters first?</p>

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<p>I thought about doing an MS degree first but I'd prefer to avoid that if I can. </p>

<p>My first issue is the financial aspects of it. If you enter an MS program, you'll be expected to pay tuition. Teaching assistantships pay very little. </p>

<p>Secondly, I noticed that most decent PhD programs take in their candidates before they start on their MS degrees. Besides, on a typical EE professor's resume, you'll rarely ever see an MS and PhD awarded from separate schools. </p>

<p>Anyways, suppose I do go for an MS directly. Which caliber of schools should I be looking at with my type of credentials? What's the best program I could possibly get into? ( I didn't take the GREs yet but I'm expecting to get a score in correlation to my old SAT score, which was something like 680V and 700M. )</p>

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<p>I'll be honest. Forget top 50 - there's no reason for any school to really accept you for a PhD. Medical work(not research) is far removed from the sort of research you do as a PhD student. Most phd programs have a min gpa of 3.0. Probably 3.3 or higher for the top 50. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but the only other way to make up for that is research and great letters of rec, and you mentioned you have neither.</p>

<p>I don't think you have any choice but to apply for a Master's. With a 2.9 you are probably looking for a 3rd possibly 2nd tier MS degree. What's key, if you want to go for PHD, is to ace all your classes and get involved in as much research as your schedule will fit and also during the summers. You will need to put in a lot of hard work to convince the PHD admissions(esp at a top 50) that you have what it takes to do the research. </p>

<p>The other option is to just join the staff at some university laboratory and work there for two-three years. If you can put out some solid research, and get some good recs from the people you work for, you could quite easily get into a top 50 program. You will get paid, $20 an hr around here, not sure how much in other schools. Then again, I'm not sure how available these positions are to people who haven't been in school for awhile. </p>

<p>You're going to have to put in a lot of work and time either way. I think you should take a good amount of time and make sure you really want to go through with this, because it's a lot of time and possibly money.</p>

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<p>My uneventful prospects for PhD admissions is understandable but is my outlook really THAT bad? </p>

<p>If I'm not mistaken, the tech economy isn't remarkable by any means and there is an oversupply of PhD recipients out in the EE job market. EE/CS enrollment has fallen noticeably over the years, too. Since these programs are at PhD level, I could understand why their admissions standards are high but it's hard to believe that these programs are intensely fought over for as some people here say. </p>

<p>How do I appear in getting accepted to weak PhD programs? ( ranked 50th-100th ) Are there any low-ranked programs that I should at least try applying to? I would appreciate the names of specific programs. ( so that if I'm accepted, maybe I can transfer out to a better program in the future )</p>

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<p>Wow, I had such a great response typed up and it got wiped.</p>

<p>Bleh, anyway, i'll sum it up. </p>

<p>Yes, I'm sure there are some schools that would let you in. However, the only thing you have going for you is the fact that you majored in EE. I know, it's harsh but it's also true. 2.9 from a top 35 is not really a good phd GPA, as I mentioned before. On top, you have no good academic recs, no research, no experience and you've been away from the field for a long time.</p>

<p>Basically, you say you want to do research/academics. But these are the most hotly contest positions for Ph.D. Simply put your odds of getting into any research lab or even a 3rd tier faculty position drop significantly if you get a degree. Just go look at the faculty list at any of those universities and see where people got their degrees. It won't automatically rule you out, but you will have to fight harder and probably do a lengthy postdoc to get in.</p>

<p>I don't know why you are so opposed to doing Master's though. Hell, you can do it part time at a state school and work if losing money is a big problem. However, you will need research experience on top of that if you want a good shot at a top 50. </p>

<p>Hope I'm not being too depressing, but I think it's always better to get a grip on your real options. You can still get to where you want to be, you will just have to work for it.</p>

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<p>"my uneventful prospects for PhD admissions is understandable but is my outlook really THAT bad?"</p>

<p>I'd say they are. I don't think any PhD committee in the top 100 universities will take you in. The best option is to get a masters first and show that you can get good grades. But your GPA is sub 3.0 which makes it hard for admissions to a masters program without great letters of rec, research experience, good GRE scores. Which brings another issue, you are only expecting a GRE Q score of 700. You really need something higher; the mean score is 720 and most engineers get close to 800. </p>

<p>Basically you might consider working in an EE lab for a year to gather research experience and great letters of rec. Which brings about another question. You never really indicated whether you had any research experience, how do you know if you like research?</p>

<p>and lastly, say you are admitted in a PhD program. What makes you think you can pass the prelims and qualifying exams? You're going to have to not only learn all the material from the PhD level classes, but you'll have to recall ALL the math (calculus, linear algebra, diff eqns) skills, as well as programming skills, as well as advanced EE topics covered junior and senior year of your undergrad. You'll need that knowledge just to be able to succeed in PhD classes, and then pass the exams. </p>

<p>I think the only real option is to get a masters first, which will even be hard to get into (top 50-100) with your current stats. </p>

<p>Sorry to be depressing but I think this is a more realistic view. My current PhD program averaged a gpa of 3.75 and most of the kids come from top 10 schools. I don't think top 50 PHD programs are gonna vary a whole lot in respect to ave gpa (im guessing ~3.5ish for the low end). My undergrad is from a top 50 university (in the grad and undergrad sense), and their average GPA was a 3.5 for many of their grad programs.</p>

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<p>720 is actually the average quant score for engineers. However, most engineers going to decent graduate schools will get scores close to 800.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
720 is actually the average quant score for engineers. However, most engineers going to decent graduate schools will get scores close to 800.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>That's not true. Check out the average GRE quant at the top engineering schools and they hover between 750-770. So there will be a good proportion below the average</p>

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<p>No, I'm right. Trust me.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ets.org/Media/Tests/GRE/pdf/994994.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ets.org/Media/Tests/GRE/pdf/994994.pdf&lt;/a> <-- check out pg. 17</p>

<p>Yes, average scores at top schools are usually 750+, and those are better than average students applying to those top schools.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your suggestions, guys, and I can kind of get what you're all saying. </p>

<p>But what about getting into 3rd tier PhD programs? There aren't any comprehensive rankings for EE PhD programs but I'm thinking of schools like CUNY City College, Northeastern, SUNY Buffalo, Polytechnic ( the one in NYC ), and the University of Miami. ( please list me other schools you think I would have a 'chance' at) Do you think these schools would take someone of my caliber? I would then try to transfer out into a better program once I spend 1 or 2 yrs in these programs. Does my plan sound feasible?</p>

<p>Suppose the above really does happen but I don't manage to transfer to a better program. What'll probably happen? Would the fact that I received a PhD from a weak school alone kill most of my chances at getting into academics/research at a major engineering school? If so, what about doing design work at some company? ( i.e. IC design, computer architecture ) Can that still become a realistic option after a PhD from such a program?</p>

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<p>one more thing: some posters have commented on my ability to actually finish a PhD curriculum. </p>

<p>I'm not underestimating PhD programs, more so in EE since it is undoubtedly the most difficult field of study. My experience might be anecdotal but, c'mon, how often is it that someone fails out of grad school? It's rare, and profs often seem to be lenient on curves when giving out grades in grad-level courses. I've taken a grad course in solid state physics and I received an A-. I haven't been out of school for that long, so I'm still accustomed to all-night and weekend studying. </p>

<p>Also, I admit that I've forgotten much of what I learned as an EE major. But still, I hardly recall of any EE courses that actually required knowledge from a prior course. ( except for the use of Matlab and Cadence, since it is burdensome for profs to go over tutorials all the time )</p>

<p>Again, I acknowledge that my experience might be anecdotal and I'm not downplaying the difficulty in EE. I just want to know where you guys think I'm wrong. ( I know dental school is a different ball game as opposed to EE but, even then, I was told by a dental faculty that I could fail out in 1 yr, given that I was accepted to only 1 of 22 dental schools I applied to. I still made it thru in a normal 4 yr span. My cum gpa was crummy at 2.8 but that was above the median gpa for my class. Most of the guys in my class were bio majors. I wasn't. And yet, I made it thru medical classes just fine. )</p>

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<p>microchip,</p>

<p>how do you know you want to do research for a living? Have you done any? How are you so certain you want to go for a PhD, a rather huge endeavor? </p>

<p>I've listed some info on the schools you mentioned to give you a sense of your competition. These are numbers for incoming engineering graduate students:</p>

<p>Northeastern (#69)
Average GPA: 3.6 (PhD); 3.3 (MS)
Average GRE quant: 761 (PhD); 741 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 411 (PhD) 421 (MS)</p>

<p>SUNY Buffalo (#54)
Average GPA: 3.5 (PhD); 3.2 (MS)
Average GRE quant: 766 (PhD); 754 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 491 (PhD) 493 (MS)</p>

<p>RPI (#93)
Average GPA: N/A
Average GRE quant: 774 (PhD); 711 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 516 (PhD) 482 (MS)</p>

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<p>Going to a low ranked PHD school for two years and then switching to a better one is essentially the same as doing a Master's and switching out. The only issue is that you will be able to get into a much better master's program than a PhD, so your chances of doing useful research when you want to transfer will be that much higher. I can stress this enough. Ph.D. is almost all about research. You need to prove you can do good research. If you can do that and publish a couple papers many good places would take you. If you had good grades and/or good recs, they could compensate for it, but without that, you need the research. </p>

<p>However, classes are important in the sense that you need to pass a qualifying exam. People fail out of these all the time. Basically, if you fail more than a few times, they hand you a MS and kick you out. I don't know about lower ranked schools, but I hear at stanford that they kick you out if you fail twice. 1/3 phd students never pass and advance to candidacy. I'm sure the statistic is less brutal at other schools, but it is still no walk in the park. </p>

<p>Ph.D. jobs are really hard to find in almost all areas, and except for the rare cases(read:professors and a few industry people - mostly from top 20-40 schools), they don't provide a great boost to your salary over MS, and can even hurt it. If you want to do research, that's great, go for it. But how do you know this is something you want to spend many years on, when you've never take part in it before? Why are you so sure you want a Ph.D. and not an MS?</p>

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<p>i'm just wondering how on earth did u get into dental school with a 2.9 GPA?</p>

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<p>One dental school was impressed by my DAT score. I scored around a 23, when the school's incoming average was a 16. The 23 I scored ( which was taken a long while back ) is still considerably higher than today's incoming stats ( DAT average now is about 18.5 ) for that school, which has supposedly become more competitive.</p>

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<p>"Northeastern (#69)
Average GPA: 3.6 (PhD); 3.3 (MS)
Average GRE quant: 761 (PhD); 741 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 411 (PhD) 421 (MS)</p>

<p>SUNY Buffalo (#54)
Average GPA: 3.5 (PhD); 3.2 (MS)
Average GRE quant: 766 (PhD); 754 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 491 (PhD) 493 (MS)</p>

<p>RPI (#93)
Average GPA: N/A
Average GRE quant: 774 (PhD); 711 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 516 (PhD) 482 (MS)"</p>

<p>Alright, I'll leave out these schools. But what about PhD programs at the Univ of Miami, CUNY City College, and Polytechnic Univ ( NOT RPI ) in NYC, Univ. of New Mexico, and Univ of Mississippi? </p>

<p>These programs aren't found anywhere at all in rankings and I'm presuming that people with high stats wouldn't even choose these places as safety schools. </p>

<p>What's your feedback on these places? </p>

<p>If I get a PhD from the above schools, what's the possibility of getting into academics/research at a major engineering school?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm not underestimating PhD programs, more so in EE since it is undoubtedly the most difficult field of study. My experience might be anecdotal but, c'mon, how often is it that someone fails out of grad school? It's rare, and profs often seem to be lenient on curves when giving out grades in grad-level courses. I've taken a grad course in solid state physics and I received an A-. I haven't been out of school for that long, so I'm still accustomed to all-night and weekend studying.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have to echo what merper68 said and say that it's not the course grading that will kill you. Grad coursework is merely incidental, and in my opinion, should be all graded P/NP. No, what will kill you are 2 things. Firstly, like merper68 said, plenty of people fail the quals. In fact, many departments specifically design their quals in order to weed out a certain percentage of students. You can get stellar course grades, and still fail your quals. Happens all the time, particularly in certain harsher programs. Furthermore, even if you do pass your quals, your qual score will determine your priority in getting the advisor and, by extention, the research project you will get to work on.</p>

<p>Which leads to the second and far far more important obstacle - which is that you even if you do survive the quals, you still have to produce the dissertation. This is no walk in the park by any means. A LOT of students are simply unable to produce a dissertation that is acceptable to their committee, sometimes after spending years and years of effort in doing so. A strong dissertation requires good research results, but not everybody is able to obtain good research results. You could be running into dead-ends for years on end, until your funding runs out (as no department will fund you forever). You also run the major risk of somebody performing a similar experiment that you are doing and publishing its results before you can complete your dissertation, or somebody publishing a major finding that invalidates one of your project's basic research premises. </p>

<p>Numerous studies have shown that something like less than half of all matriculating PhD students actually manage to ultimately complete their PhD's. Some of them get kicked out by the quals. Some of them are unable to complete their dissertation. For some of them, life intrudes in the form of having kids or simply losing interest in the field, etc. The point is, simply doing well in grad coursework is a poor proxy to how you will do in your PhD quest. </p>

<p>That's why I agree with merper86 when I say that you really need to find out whether you are really up to the lifestyle of a researcher. Because, presuming that you pass your quals, that lifestyle is what you will have for several years, with no assurance that you will actually finish the degree. It's a huge mountain to climb, and a lot of people who start the climb never make it to the top.</p>

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<p>Oops, wrong school. My bad. Polytechnic University is ranked #77, but no data is listed. The only school I have data for is the University of New Mexico (#77):</p>

<p>Average GPA: 3.4 (PhD and MS)
Average GRE quant: 748 (PhD); 687 (MS)
Average GRE verbal: 482 (PhD) 488 (MS)</p>

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<p>I'll keep cool with the majority suggestion: MS first. </p>

<p>Any suggestions on which MS programs to apply to? I prefer the highest ranked programs that I might possibly be able to get into. Let's first disregard locations and costs. </p>

<p>But suppose I eventually end up at getting a PhD from a crappy program. How would this affect my chances of getting to academics/reseach? Would tech companies ( I'm interested in doing VLSI or computer architecture if I can't get a job as a tenured prof in a major school ) be biased against hiring PhD engineers from low-ranked programs? </p>

<p>Opportunity-wise, if I were to get such a PhD, would it be better not to have attempted it at all?</p>