Poor Undergrad GPA, how do I make up for it?

Graduate School
1

<p>I went to UC Davis and I have to admit, that I was undisciplined, unmotivated, and disorganized. I'm smart as a whistle, but I was satisfied with B's and C's, and got a 3.02 overall GPA for my last two years (during this time, there was one quarter where I had a mental breakdown and was severely debilitated from illness and I dropped or failed most of my classes, but I made them up next semester). (Altogether, it's like 3.13 with all four years). I didn't do any special extra currics or anything either.</p>

<p>I had a year off, where I just worked dead end jobs but I applied to a teacher credentialing program during that time. I also manned up, and found my discipline and motivation. Throughout my credential program, I received a 4.0, was president of a community service club, received leadership scholarships, and worked at a non-profit (for my third job, outside of full-time classes). I plan to teach for at least two years before I even think of applying for grad school, but I've already had my poor GPA come back to haunt me.</p>

<p>I tried to apply for Cal Poly's summer Teacher Researcher program, believing I had a good chance to get in because my grades lately have been amazing, and I have great letters of rec, but I think my science grades from my undergraduate career put my possible research mentors off. As of now, I still don't have any real viable research experience, and it's been my goal to get some over the summers, but it doesn't look like it's happening this summer.</p>

<p>I plan to take some community college classes instead: classical physics, retake o. chem, and calculus 3, etc. I am fairly sure I will ace these classes with my current mentality and discipline. </p>

<p>I just want to know, will this go at all, anyway towards mending my mediocre undergraduate career? Apparently I've been told B's are the new C's or D's. My goal is to get into a graduate program at UC Berkeley or MIT or Cal Tech.</p>

<p>By the way, I love teaching, and I am not going to leave the profession, but I want a graduate degree to enhance my understanding, and get me involved in the actual science I am teaching, so I can better teach it, and also for the higher pay-scale! ;D</p>

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<p>Honestly, your GPA is going to keep you from being admitted to any of the schools you mentioned. You’re talking about three hyper competitive programs with many highly-qualified applicants - a GPA of 3.1 is an easy application to dump on the first cut. I won’t say you have no chance… but you have no chance.</p>

<p>If you just want to learn more of the science and get a pay bump, a master’s from any average state university will be fine. You might even be able to do it part-time at your local CSU.</p>

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<p>It’s always been my dream to attend UC Berkeley though. Is there no way to get in there no matter how many years pass because of mistakes I made in my late teens and early twenties?</p>

<p>Also, though I am getting a 4.0, I am currently in a CSU system, and I am very unimpressed by the rigor (or lack thereof), and dearth of researching top-name professors.</p>

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<p>Retaking undergrad courses isn’t the way to go about it. </p>

<p>You want to be taking grad courses as a non-degree seeking student in the area you’re interested in studying. </p>

<p>If you want a masters you might have a shot if you do that. If you want a phd you’ll need research experience and good letters of recommendation.</p>

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<p>@broken_symlink: Hm. No one’s ever given me that advice before. How do I take grad courses if I’m not accepted into a school/program? Comm. College only offers undergrad courses I believe.</p>

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<p>What field are you interested in?</p>

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<p>You have no research experience, nor is your overall UGPA outstanding. You’re interested in a degree to get a pay bump as a K-12 teacher. To be blunt, those attributes are not going to make “researching top-name professors” interested in taking you on as a graduate student, not when they have a list of dozens or hundreds of other applicants with stronger qualifications and the desire to make a career of research.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to be Debbie Downer but you need to be realistic. Getting a 4.0 in a teacher credentialing program is not going to override a modest GPA in your overall degree, or your lack of research experience. The three schools you listed are among the most competitive in the country, if not the world, and receive far more applicants than they can possibly accept.</p>

<p>At many schools, you can apply to take a limited number of graduate courses as a non-degree student. Contact each university’s graduate school to find out about admissions requirements.</p>

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<p>@polarscribe: I think you’re misreading my intentions. My main ambition is not to get a pay-bump. It is just a perk. Yes, I plan on being a k-12 teacher, and probably don’t want to make a career as a researcher. Since when was this a requirement to get a Masters or a Ph.D? I had assumed that anyone interested in researching and obtaining more in depth knowledge on a subject would be a candidate for an advanced degree.</p>

<p>Besides, who better to get advanced education than the instructor of your children?</p>

<p>In addition, no, my GPA in undergrad is not outstanding, but I have more than shown that I can make up for it with my current grades as evidence, and my current active involvement in school. I have no research experience, but because I didn’t get research experience in my undergrad years, does that mean I can NEVER get research experience?</p>

<p>I don’t see why you are being so all-or-nothing about this. Why would a professor judge someone based on the person they were years ago rather than the person they are now? Besides, I don’t care whether or not top-name research professors would take me on as a grad student because I don’t meet their ideal qualifications (4.0 grinding undergrad student with no life experiences, on a straight track to slave/professor-hood for the next 8 years), I care more about whether or not I feel like studying under them.</p>

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<p>Almost every single science teacher in my high school has a masters or PhD in their respective field. That being said, they almost all decided to teach AFTER having planned on devoting their life to research or industry. I think perhaps what polarscribe was getting at is that for the most part, you get a PhD because you want to devote your life to that subject. Most college professors are not just PhDs because they want to teach, but because they are researching on the side. I see no problem in you trying to get research opportunities now, but it will honestly be difficult. In the competitive world we live in today, not every professor or researcher out there is willing to take someone on board with little to no research experience in the past. I had to contact dozens of professors to get my one chance for my summer internships last year. If you’re lucky and persistent, I say by all means go for it. </p>

<p>That being said, I think polarscribe is right. If you make it evident that you want to be a K-12 teacher and want to “learn more to teach better” essentially, grades aside I don’t think MIT or Caltech or Berkeley would take you over the guy who wants to spend the rest of his life to do particle physics research and plans to work at CERN or something. I think it is admirable that you want to teach, but just remember who else you are going up against.</p>

<p>On top of that, (and this comes from me as a current high school senior taking IB higher level sciences who has done research on some complex projects) I’m telling you what you will learn in grad school and the research process is so far beyond the high school. The material and concepts will “enhance your understanding”, but they won’t actually help much with the teaching you will do later on. </p>

<p>I know that you are posting on this forum for advice and reassurance, and I think that if you truly want to try and get a masters or PhD, then you definitely should. I also think that there is no harm in applying to a wide range of schools. But just remember how competitive the process is and don’t be too dissappointed if MIT/Caltech/Berkeley don’t accept you. Good luck.</p>

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<p>If you have no intention of making a career as a researcher, you will have an extremely difficult time being admitted to any Ph.D program. Doctoral slots are a limited resource - effectively, long-term internships in research. Professors (who make admissions decisions) want to admit prospective students who intend to use those skills. If your Statement of Purpose says “yeah, I’m not really interested in researching, I just want a Ph.D,” you’ll effectively be autorejected.</p>

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<p>I don’t think you understand how graduate admissions work. To get admitted to a Ph.D program, you generally have to find a professor you want to study under - someone whose research direction and work matches with your specific research interests. If you think those professors are going to be falling all over themselves worried about “whether or not (you) feel like studying under them,” you’ve got something else coming.</p>

<p>Besides, if you don’t care about “top-name research professors,” then why are you dismissing the idea of attending a “less-prestigious” Cal State or (gasp) non-Berkeley UC?</p>

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<p>I’m not being “all-or-nothing about this.” I’ve explained that you have the opportunity to apply to any number of graduate programs to which you would likely be admitted for masters’ studies. You could get a perfectly good master’s degree from a Cal State school.</p>

<p>But when you’re talking about three of the most competitive schools in the United States, you’re talking about leaping into a pool of competitors that is extraordinarily deep and talented - and your resume would stand out among those only for what it lacks. Such schools get hundreds or thousands of applications for maybe 5 or 10 slots in a given year - admit rates are commonly in the 5% range for Ph.D programs. Why waste a bunch of money and time applying to places that are just not going to accept you?</p>

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<p>Polarscribe: I appreciate your insight, I really do, but I feel like you’re beating a dead horse. You might have missed it when you first read my post, but I am not going to be applying for at least 2 years. You say that my applications will only stand out for what it lacks, and what it lacks is a stellar GPA and research experience. I think 2 years is definitely sufficient time to make amends for that if I haven’t already. Research experience can always be obtained, and whether I take community college classes, or graduate classes as a NDS student, my GPA from my undergrad years will be irrelevant.</p>

<p>As for your concerns about my concerns about the Cal State system, perhaps I worded my desires oddly. I’m not really looking for “top-name” research professors (though it would be nice), as I am just looking for research professors. The Cal State system is a glorified more expensive Community College, and all the professors I asked there aren’t even doing current research. Their master’s programs are very course oriented and not research oriented, and I feel that makes the degree rather useless. It’s not so much about the prestige of the school (again though, it would be nice if I could get into a prestigious school) as it is about whether or not the school is known for its research. I attended a top research school for my undergrad, and everything else just doesn’t impress me, so I need someplace better than a Cal State school.</p>

<p>I am very aware about how graduate school admissions work. I’ve researched this topic for around two years. I understand completely that it is professors who choose who enters their mentorship and program, but if a professor isn’t a good fit for me, then I don’t want to learn under that professor. I know academia is fraught with ass-kissing, but I don’t intend to involve myself in that. If that’s what it takes, I’ll move on.</p>

<p>In addition, you say I shouldn’t apply to places that are obviously not going to accept me. To that all I have to reply is that luckily you have no clue as to whether or not they’ll accept me because fortunately, you aren’t a professor at any of these schools. I’ll decide for myself whether or not I think my application has a chance to be accepted. The only real failure after all is neglecting to apply.</p>

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<p>@Moonman: You seem to know a lot about graduate school for a High School student! Thanks for your prospects about getting research experience. I will do my best to gain research experience over the summers I am not teaching.</p>

<p>You are very correct to say that my statement of purpose definitely needs revamping. I would need to find something that makes me stand out as a candidate against those who are willing to devote their lives (though the fact that many of them quit to become teachers says something about their “devotion”) to their fields.</p>

<p>I also understand that what students normally learn in high school is far more basic and broad than what is typically studied as a graduate research student. It seems like you know a lot about teachers (seeing as how you know a lot about their educational backgrounds), and you might know that a lot about what teaching is, is coming from a place from which students can respect. Who would you rather have teaching you science? A teacher who just got their Bachelor’s degree and then immediately got their credential with no science or research experience? Or would you rather have a teacher who has actually been involved in science and has published research?</p>

<p>Aside from that fact, I’m teaching science because I simply love it, and I want to immerse myself in it more. It’s always been my dream to have at least one published paper, even if it’s not in a great journal.</p>

<p>If I don’t get in to any of those schools, I would understand, and either take another opportunity, or keep applying. Good luck in your future. You seem like an incredibly bright student, and you seem motivated enough to succeed!</p>

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<p>The graduate students who populate this forum don’t ******** people. You asked whether your plan would help you get into graduate school at Caltech, MIT and Berkeley with a 3.1. Not my fault the answer isn’t what you wanted to hear.</p>

<p>If you just wanted a bunch of people to tell you how brilliant your idea is and how MIT is absolutely your safety school, you should have posted in What’s My Chances.</p>

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<p>I’m not saying you’re bull-****ting anyone. I understand the position you’re coming from, but I think you’re being incredibly negative and rather than just say I have no chance, I would appreciate it if you would give me advice as to how I might get a chance. </p>

<p>As I said, I appreciate your insight, but I think you’re completely wrong in saying that there is no hope for someone at this point. From what I’ve heard people with life experiences have far better chances than someone who was just the picture-perfect student and follows the beaten path without ever diverging.</p>

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<p>As I said, I appreciate your insight, but I think you’re completely wrong in saying that there is no hope for someone at this point. From what I’ve heard people with life experiences have far better chances than someone who was just the picture-perfect student and follows the beaten path without ever diverging.</p>

<p>It depends on what those life experiences are. Teaching K-12 science is not the kind of experience research-heavy top programs value.</p>

<p>Polarscribe HAS offered you good advice. He told you how to take classes as a non-degree student (which will benefit you far more than retaking undergrad classes you did not do well in). But better yet, he has attempted to be realistic with you, which is better than unrealistically attempting to make you feel better about your chances of getting into a top MS program at MIT or Caltech or Berkeley.</p>

<p>A couple of points that crossed my mind.</p>

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<li><p>As polarscribe said, you are not going to gain admission to a PhD program if you admit to wanting to be a K-12 teacher. Contrary to what you might believe, graduate PhD programs like students who are on the “straight track to…professorhood.” That is, in fact, what they want. They don’t really care much about “life experiences,” unless those life experiences would be useful in a science research career. You may gain admission into an MS program, though.</p></li>
<li><p>You say you want to obtain more research experience, but when do you plan to get research experience if you are going to work full time as a K-12 science teacher? I have a few teacher friends and they don’t have a lot of free time. I suppose you could do some during the summers, but you are not going to be eligible for REUs like undergrads - and when you apply to programs, you are going to be competing with people who are the same age/cohort as you, but have more research experience because they were doing it year-round.</p></li>
<li><p>I know you dream of going to MIT/Caltech/Berkeley for some prestige reasons that aren’t entirely clear to me, but if your goal is to be a K-12 science teacher and that is your passion - I don’t really understand the desires to go to a prestigious school. Going to a great UC program, sure, if that is your home state. But why pursue a research-oriented MIT or Caltech degree when your goal is to back into teaching? Graduate tuition at MIT is $40,000+ for 9 months. Let’s also make a low estimate of $20,000 of living expenses, and we are talking about a $120,000 degree. You may possibly get the degree funded, but you won’t be the most competitive applicant, so maybe not. Costs at Caltech are similar, and they openly admit that many of their terminal master’s students are self-funded. How will you pay off a $120,000 degree? Why can’t an MS at a UC do the same job, which is teaching you more science so you can teach it to your students? Heck, your job may even pay for it if you go part-time.</p></li>
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<p>You asked whether I would rather have a teacher who came straight from undergrad or one who had published something. The answer is that I’d rather have a teacher who knew his subject and came up with innovative, creative ways to teach that subject to students who may be less than interested in the topic. Whether or not he’d published anything at the K-12 level is irrelevant. I had a biology teacher in high school who had spent the previous 4 years as a biological research in a laboratory, and had a master’s degree in the subject. He was not a good teacher. (He had potential, though, and I suspect he’s better now.)</p>

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<p>You haven’t actually shown that you can succeed in a grad program until you take some grad courses in the area you’re interested in studying. Although I don’t know much about teaching credential programs, I’m willing to bet there is a huge difference between the courses you take and say graduate level physics courses.</p>

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<p>@broken_symlink: As you say, there is probably a huge difference. I won’t know until I try, but if I do succeed, is it still impossible?</p>

<p>@juillet: Actually Broken_Symlink was the one who suggested non-degree seeking studentship. Polarscribe simply told me that I have zero chance.</p>

<p>I understand that my statement of purpose isn’t ideal for entry into a graduate program. An MS program would be sufficient for me. I don’t think I intend to go the PhD route. Also, while I intend to go back to teaching after obtaining my coursework/degree, I doubt that I will remain a teacher for the rest of my life. I honestly, see no value to saying that you will do one occupation for the rest of your life, simply because everyone else does that. I have intense interests in science, specifically in physics and engineering, and I want to satiate those curiosities.</p>

<p>Also, actually, while I may not be eligible for undergrad REU’s, there are many other research opportunities for teachers during summers, such as ISMEE, and STAR, among other things. There are many fellowships and grants set up for teachers to receive funding for completing research, which isn’t common knowledge.</p>

<p>An MS at a UC would be lovely. I honestly wouldn’t mind, but I don’t see the harm in aspiring higher, and shooting for Cal or some other well known place. Sure the costs are high, but education is worth a lot to me, and I wouldn’t mind spending money on it. Honestly though, if none of those places will accept me, I will accept alternative opportunities.</p>

<p>And Juillet, that is why I got my credential first before my Master’s. I have the option to continue staying in school to obtain more education, but I want to get out there and improve my skills in teaching. I create amazing rapport with kids, I have very deep knowledge of my subject matter, and I am extremely creative and engaging in the classroom. I will continue to build my skills further over the next few years. But it would serve me later, and it would be the accomplishment of one of my own goals if I could obtain an advanced degree and publish a scientific paper.</p>

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<p>The harm is that the time and effort you invest in trying for schools that are extremely unlikely to admit you could be better spent focusing on your applications to schools where you do have a strong chance.</p>

<p>My undergraduate GPA is even worse than yours (3.08). When I started looking at graduate schools in my field, there were several I didn’t even bother applying to because my GPA fell below their minimum. C’est la vie, water under the bridge.</p>

<p>I found many quality schools where I could squeak in, looked for professors doing interesting research and ended up with (among others) a partially-funded (1yr) admission to Indiana University that I accepted. It’s no HYPS knock-your-socks-off name, but it’s a very strong program in my field (recreation) and I have a supportive, well-published and iconoclastic advisor.</p>

<p>Point is, you don’t have to go to Caltech or MIT for a great graduate experience and a quality education.</p>

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<p>I don’t think its impossible, because you never know. Its just not common, but who knows, you may just be one of the uncommon ones who gets in. You’re chances go up if you only want a masters, since at some schools, masters programs are cash cows. I don’t know specifically about the schools on your list though.</p>

<p>I myself am aiming high as well, not quite as high, but I understand that I may well have to settle for less and it is something I accept, because in the end my love for my field and my desire to learn are what matter most to me, not where I go.</p>

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<p>Polarscribe says this in post #6:</p>

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<p>He wasn’t the one who originally told you about it, but he was the one who told you how to do it.</p>

<p>If you want to complete the MS for your own personal reasons/accomplishment, that makes more sense now. Personal curiosity is a solid reason for wanting a grad degree.</p>

<p>* Sure the costs are high, but education is worth a lot to me, and I wouldn’t mind spending money on it.*</p>

<p>That’s all fine and good. Education is worth a lot to most people. My question is, how do you intend to repay that debt? An MS program is likely to completely or primarily loans unless you manage to find a funded one, and Caltech and MIT’s programs are likely to be around $120K. How will you repay that? Being willing to spend money on it is great, but you will be spending money that you do not actually have and cannot hope to pay back. Lots of science MS programs are funded; I think you should, in addition for shooting for Caltech and MIT, shoot for some good match programs at which you may be competitive for funding. Also, look into the possibility of your school paying for you to get an MS.</p>

<p>In any event, I don’t think that it’s impossible for you to gain admission to one of those places, although it will take some work. Put some distance between yourself and your undergrad years - work for 2-3 years, and try those summer research programs you pointed out for teachers. And try to get involved in other things that will look good. Most high schools have a science fair; maybe you could serve as a teacher mentor to a few students who are doing that seriously? Coach a scientific interest club or something like that. If you can talk in creative ways about how you brought your passion for science into the classroom, that could be a human interest story that may perk up your statement a little (although the interest will primarily be in research and academic work).</p>

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<p>@Polarscribe: The minimum GPA for most Cal MA/MS’s is 3.0, so my application would be completely eligible, even if its not competitive. I simply have a more optimistic outlook. Even if I know my chances of getting in are almost nil, I’ll still apply just because I have the chance to. I’ve already made too many mistakes in the past simply by failing to apply or step-up and do something, and I’ve decided I’d take the opportunities if they are available to me, regardless of how I feel my chances are.</p>

<p>@broken_symlink: You are completely correct. What matters is which program is the best fit for you. Not the name of the school.</p>

<p>@Juillet: I may take your advice about finding funded programs. Of course money is definitely a factor, but I’m running on the assumption that my first challenge is to get accepted somewhere. I do still have a lot of money saved up for education, and I plan to put away a lot more over the next few years from working as teacher. As you say, some school districts also pay for MS degrees. Unfortunately, you need to be doing your MS part-time and it probably has to be an MA in education. The programs I’ve been interested in full time have only been full-time, so I don’t know if that works. </p>

<p>I’m already mentoring a few students in independent science research projects, and have been involved in a non-profit teaching girls science and engineering to close the gender gap in those industries. Another great thing about being a science teacher is you get your own science lab! I’m thinking about doing something similar to open-sourcing our lab to other researchers doing projects that the students I teach can handle so they can get hands on experience helping out in real-time research. (Only like one or two projects a year that are relevant to what we are learning.)</p>