<p>lmpw: Of course there is a HUGE Black middle class and affluent class. Highly educated and professional. I am surprised that your daughter thinks that <em>most</em> white people on her campus are shocked by the fact that she is just another normal smart kid that pays full tuition. But that just confirms that there is a <em>stereotype</em>, not that there is <em>discrimination</em>. </p>
<p>The kind of stereotype that you mention actually leads to lowered expectations which are then easier to surpass. Imagine two kids who are equally articulate- one black and one white. Or two kids who are equal math geniuses- one black and one asian. Guess who is going to create a more dramatic and positive impact? The black one.</p>
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Data from 1995 show that black students from families earning more than $70,000 in 1995 dollars scored lower on average than white students from families earning less than $10,000 in 1995 dollars (850 vs. 870). For reference, the first income figure is equivalent to over $96,500, and the second is equivalent to under $14,000 in today’s dollars.
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This argument actually helps to prove my point that minorities are hindered by negative stereotypes they face in society. These black students probably have access to test prep and decent schools yet they still do not perform as well as they should be.</p>
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Now, diversity, on the other hand, simply means variation. And, variation clearly exists at the UCs. Is there only one race present at UC and CSU campuses? Last time I checked, all races were present.
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That is not a very good argument. Yes that is diversity but it is not "meaningful" diversity. You need to have an adequate amount of every group present to benefit from having racial diversity. This type of argument reminds me of people who say things like, "I cannot be prejudiced! I have one [insert minority race] friend!"</p>
<p>I know I am not the first to say this but the whole concept of what warrents "merit" is so cultural or maybe anthopological. I believe some things society values or thinks are worthy of merit can be inborn, but even these are subject to a great deal of environmental pressure over time. Lets think about temperments such as level of activity or quick reaction time. Today, in the US, we think of them as biologically based "symptoms" of "Attention Deficit Disorder" and value test scores, but some authors think the former were highly valued traits, worthy of merit, at a different time, in a different setting. This was a trait that was valued in a partner if you were a hunter! I happen to believe these traits are somewhat "overepresented" among school age males, and perhaps among African American males in particular. Within the African American culture, these traits are still valued, especially by fathers, and in my experince "ADD" goes "undertreated" among African American males. I believe they have some protective value, but these "symptoms" in the wrong context, sometimes without regard to income, lead to interactions with the juvenille court system. In other contexts, it becomes "leadership" at best, a mental health problem at worst. </p>
<p>It's interesting to me how these affirmative action threads are so popular and I wonder what people get out of them. For me they are largely fruitless, unless one kid uses them in a way that brings them increased success. In the short term, like many of you, it is about a self-serving goal of getting one person into the "right college". But in the long term, there are societal impacts that won't be remedied here. For me, this means doing my job every day, hoping the Black kids and families I see will trust me enough to see things from another perspective, and hoping I will be worthy of their trust. Being worthy means going beyond short term individual goals, and thinking about the long term goals I want for society. I am not sure what traits I think will be worthy of merit in 10 years, or 100 years, but I would hate to see them vanish before we have a chance to decide.</p>
<p>Please don't take this the wrong way, but this "huge" affluent black population must exist in pockets in the east and south, and California. I have lived in New York, DC, and LA. One million sounds like a lot, but what does that translate into in percentages within a community? As I said before, we now live in N.California, and we are actively seeking that on a college campus arid are always pleasantly surprised when "we" meet.</p>
<p>Yes, Espenshade and Chung's 2005 paper used data "from the National
Study of College Experience on 124,374 applications for admission during the 1980s and the fall semesters of 1993 and 1997."</p>
This argument actually helps to prove my point that minorities are hindered by negative stereotypes they face in society. These black students probably have access to test prep and decent schools yet they still do not perform as well as they should be.
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<p>I believe that racial preferences exacerbate negative stereotypes against blacks. It conveys the idea, “You can’t make it unless you have our help,” which is the wrong message to send. As Justice Powell wrote thirty years ago, “…preferential programs may only reinforce common stereotypes holding that certain groups are unable to achieve success without special protection based on a factor having no relationship to individual worth.”</p>
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That is not a very good argument. Yes that is diversity but it is not "meaningful" diversity. You need to have an adequate amount of every group present to benefit from having racial diversity. This type of argument reminds me of people who say things like, "I cannot be prejudiced! I have one [insert minority race] friend!"
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<p>enderkin asked a very good question. What is this “adequate amount” that allows for “meaningful” “diversity”? It seems like you’re talking about a quota without using the word.</p>
<p>I don’t see how my argument is similar to, “I can’t be racist because I have friends who are [insert race here],” which I agree is a very poor response to allegations of racism.</p>
<p>Diversity means difference. It’s as simple as that. If you have difference, then you have diversity. Numerical percentages, adequate amounts, certain levels, critical masses, goals, targets, or whatever other word you come up with as a synonym to quota should play no role in defining diversity.</p>
<p>Are we talking about Columbia? My father ( born 1918 )completed coursework for his PhD from Columbia but his dissertation was apparently not accepted and he was told "it wasn't time". My husband ( born 1962) got his BS there.</p>
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I believe that racial preferences exacerbate negative stereotypes against blacks. It conveys the idea, You cant make it unless you have our help, which is the wrong message to send. As Justice Powell wrote thirty years ago, preferential programs may only reinforce common stereotypes holding that certain groups are unable to achieve success without special protection based on a factor having no relationship to individual worth.
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Using this same logic, people should not help the homeless or sponsor food drives to help out the poor because it sends the message that they cannot achieve success on their own? That is absurd to me. This statement sends the message that just because you are helping someone, you are better than them which is a poor attitude to take when trying to address social injustices.</p>
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Diversity means difference. Its as simple as that. If you have difference, then you have diversity. Numerical percentages, adequate amounts, certain levels, critical masses, goals, targets, or whatever other word you come up with as a synonym to quota should play no role in defining diversity.
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To you diversity is simply just having every group present. So a student body that is 99% White and 1% everyone else is diverse to you. What I am saying is that that is not an adequate amount of diversity. </p>
<p>To help you understand the concept of inadequate diversity I will provide an example. Say that you are hosting a party and that the guests have diverse tastes in beverages A, B, and C. You do not know what the break down is but you know that A is more popular than B and C. Would it be wise to purchase 90% A, 5% B, and 5% C? Do you think that you would have adequate diversity if you did this? No. More likely than not, A would not be that popular and guests who preferred drinks B and C would have to drink beverage A or go thirsty. (Perhaps the easiest way to avoid this problem would be to CONSIDER the beverage preferences since diversity does not naturally occur.) I hope this example helps you understand what inadequate diversity is.</p>
<p>In regards to colleges, the consequences of inadequate diversity is that ethnicities will be more prone to being "cliquey" and that class discussions will suffer. (Teachers say that diversity in the classroom leads to better class discussions and it makes sense why that would be the case.)</p>
<p>"To help you understand the concept of inadequate diversity I will provide an example. Say that you are hosting a party and that the guests have diverse tastes in beverages A, B, and C. You do not know what the break down is but you know that A is more popular than B and C. Would it be wise to purchase 90% A, 5% B, and 5% C? Do you think that you would have adequate diversity if you did this? No. More likely than not, A would not be that popular and guests who preferred drinks B and C would have to drink beverage A or go thirsty. (Perhaps the easiest way to avoid this problem would be to CONSIDER the beverage preferences since diversity does not naturally occur.)"</p>
<p>So, by your example, we should take a poll of all the guests. About 70% like beverage A, 11% like beverage B, 10% like beverage C, 4% like beverage D and 5% like other beverages or a combination of two or more. Do you buy in proportion so that the bangin' party has beverages reflecting the census? That way, the beverage preferences are CONSIDERED when you offer beverages at your bangin' party. Is that what adequate diversity is? </p>
<p>Because that still seems like a quota to me.</p>
<p>And where is the proof that 'inadequate diversity' leads to 'cliquey' ethnicities and diminished classroom discussions?</p>
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where is the proof that 'inadequate diversity' leads to 'cliquey' ethnicities and diminished classroom discussions?
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<p>Yeah, there ought to be some research on what aspects of campus life result in young people communicating with one another across arbitrary ethnic lines. What does that research show?</p>
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Using this same logic, people should not help the homeless or sponsor food drives to help out the poor because it sends the message that they cannot achieve success on their own? That is absurd to me. This statement sends the message that just because you are helping someone, you are better than them which is a poor attitude to take when trying to address social injustices.
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<p>Helping the poor is quite different from trying to create “adequate amounts” of “diversity” through racial preferences. The former addresses a tangible problem – poverty. The latter addresses no problem. Schools are not improved by it, and poor students are not helped by it.</p>
<p>Diversity is difference. Each individual is inherently unique. So, it is not surprising that a student body that is 99% white and 1% non-white can be diverse. We’re talking about hundreds of different people, each with his own dreams, goals, likes, and dislikes. Diversity goes far beyond race.</p>
<p>There’s a slippery slope when you start defining “adequate amounts.” When does it end? I don’t know when, but I do know that where it ends is a quota.</p>
<p>Actually, in your example, diversity did naturally occur because not everyone had the same preference for a beverage. I don’t see how this relates to diversity in the context of higher education.</p>
<p>I don’t see how class discussions will suffer as a result of “inadequate” diversity. Do you presume people to be ambassadors for their race? I believe a student speaks for himself; he doesn’t speak for his race.</p>