Possible to get into top liberal arts college?

Chance Me / Match Me!
1

My daughter is interested in going to a small liberal arts college. Her counselor often encourages her to aim her sights lower so as to avoid disappointment, but I personally think she may have a shot at the Amhersts and Williams of the world. (Or at least the Pomonas.) I was wondering if someone could give me a sanity check and tell me whether I’m just a biased parent or if she’s possibly on track for one of the top liberal arts colleges. (To be clear, I understand the rankings aren’t the be all and end all. I’m just using that as a proxy for admissions competitiveness.)

She just finished her sophomore year and has a 3.73 average. She took 2 AP classes (Japanese and World History), and got a 5 on the Japanese AP exam. (She also tested out of the foreign language requirement for the district, so that is all of her foreign language in high school.) The rest of her classes were all honors courses - with the exception of her electives and her Algebra 3/trigonometry course. For her junior year, she has signed up for US History (not AP), AP Statistics, AP Environmental Science, AP Language and Composition, and 2-3 electives (I can’t remember which ones.) She will also be taking Honors Media & Politics at Georgetown University over the summer. I should also mention that we live in a pretty competitive/high performing district. I believe several kids go to ivy league colleges every year, but I haven’t seen any stats. (For what it’s worth Zillow.com rates our high school as a 9/10. :))

Extracurriculars - She founded and is president of her school’s ACLU club. She is also very involved in Drama (tech) and SAGA (Sexuality and Gender Alliance). She’s a member (but not super involved in) Model UN. She spent her past 2 summers attending a public speaking program with Education Unlimited (once the intro program, and once the advanced), and a Business Week program. This summer she will be attending a 3-week course on Media & Politics for credit (mentioned above) and will also be participating in the ACLU Summer Institute. Both of these will be held at Georgetown U.

I’m not sure yet how she’ll do on the PSAT or SAT, so that’s a bit of a wild card. I think she took a practice PSAT last year without any practice and got a 1400 or so if I recall correctly. After she gets back from DC, she’s going to take an online SAT prep class.

What do you think? Back in my day, that would probably have been good enough to get into pretty much any small liberal arts college. What’s it like these days?

Thanks!

2

Does your HS have Naviance? That can help with the rough stats.

Acceptance rates can tell you that story - and Pomona’s (9%) is actually lower than Amherst (14%) or Williams (17%). So something like 7-9 out of 10 applicants are being rejected. And I think you can assume most of those applying have high stats and interesting ECs.

I think it’s fine to have reach schools but the counselor is right to ALSO have match schools, and a safety or two also.

3

Agree with @OHMomof2’s comments.

The good news is there are many wonderful LACs which prove a strong academic experience where admissions are less selective than Amrerhst, Williams, and Pomona.

I highly recommend picking up a Fiske Guide and learning about them.

4

Well, she does have a shot at WASP, but, IMO, it’s a pretty low one, and she’d probably have to apply ED even to get that.



To give you an idea on college admissions competitiveness, the difference between now and your day is as big or bigger than the difference between your day and the generation before, when JFK could get in to Harvard after scribbling a few words on a postcard.

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Sorry - I’m not familiar with these acronyms. What is WASP and LAC?

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There are a LOT of LACs. Can you narrow down any further in terms of location or other reasons to prefer one over another? It seems like a 3.73 and good ECs should get her into many LACs, but which ones I find hard to predict.

Is her GPA unweighted, and how is it calculated? There seems to be a huge range in how GPA is calculated, so that it is hard to know whether a 3.73 consists of all grades of 97, or is a combination of half A’s and half B’s. Where I live a 97 in a CP class is an A+, but counts as a 3.7 towards GPA.

Are finances a constraint?

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LAC - Liberal arts colleges, widely used

WASP - Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, seems to be a thing some people on College Confidential use but not widely used,

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A few comments:

–Until you have standardized test scores it is impossible to guess.

–You must accept that things have changed drastically since “our days.” The top colleges are much much harder to get into. It is critical that you take the time to understand the current admissions landscape.

–You can google the common data set for any college (ex. “common data set Williams College”) and get a sense of the average academics for students accepted into different schools. You can also google the class profiles (ex. Williams College class profile).

–But even with the information above, know that there are students with perfect GPA/SAT and great ECs don’t get accepted into the very top schools just because there is not enough space for all qualified applicants.

–For the reason above, I would not focus your D on shooting for Amherst, Williams etc. but rather come up with a list of reach, match, and safety schools that appear affordable (if that is an issue) and that she would be be happy to attend. There are so many amazing LACs out there.

–You may want to get your hands on some good college guide books (ex. Fiske, Princeton Review, Insiders Guide) to read up on other options and expand your horizons.

–My first thought is that her GPA may be a touch low for the Amherst, Williams type of schools unless she has a hook but of course it is a function of how your HS grades etc. Your guidance counselor should have a good sense of it.

–And if your HS has Naviaince that would be a great tool for you to see what schools students from your HS got into with similar GPA/standardized test.

–If standardized tests don’t go as hoped there are many wonderful test optional colleges including some outstanding LACs. https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional/state

–You have a highly accomplished D and now the trick is to find schools that will be a great match. Focus on fit not perceived prestige.

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@OHMomof2 - I don’t believe her school has Naviance. Maybe I’ll suggest it.

10

These days it’s much tougher, and yes, you are a biased parent:-). Your daughter’s GPA is going to make all of those colleges very difficult. It’s a great GPA, don’t get me wrong, but even for ‘at least’ Pomona, it’s probably on the low side. You don’t know about test scores yet, but if she got 1400, that won’t be super competitive. Is she a URM or athlete? The average GPA and test scores at all of those colleges will be higher. Of course, she may get higher grades next year and a higher SAT score.

There are a lot of really excellent colleges she will be competitive for, but they may not necessarily be the ones you mentioned. If the counselor is encouraging her to aim a little lower, it isn’t just to avoid disappointment, but of course that is part of it. The counselor probably has a good idea of what school kids with stats similar to your D can get into. As long as your daughter has a balanced list including a couple of safeties and several matches that she likes and are affordable, then she won’t be disappointed.

As far as summer courses, it’s great that she is doing things she enjoys and that keep her busy. They don’t really help in college admissions. It is viewed as “pay to play”, and colleges are just as impressed to see a kid volunteering or working as doing summer courses. I am a fan of summer courses, as they really benefited my daughter, but not for admission purposes.

These days, it’s very competitive because the top LACs are all about diversity, not just of race, but also of socio-economic status. Those colleges want the best academically talented athletes, the best international students, the most interesting students, etc… The acceptance rates at those schools are around 14% or so. They are reaches for mostly everyone.

Your daughter sounds like a smart, engaged student and plenty of LACs would love to have her. You should post in the college search and selection forum and provide a few more details about the kind of environment she is looking for and what she might want to study. You will get more targeted suggestions. Off the top of my head, I would say colleges such as Bates, Oberlin, Kenyon, Lehigh, Bucknell, Whitman, Colby, Colgate, Union, Dickinson, St. Olaf, Macalester, and Grinnell could all be possibilities. There are many others.

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I just found out that WASP = Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, and LAC = Liberal Arts College.

We are actually exploring other LACs. I actually went to Oberlin as did her aunt and uncle. I know someone on some board or other (I forget which one exactly), so I kind of think of Oberlin as her safety school. Not that it’s a safety school for anyone, but since I think she has a pretty solid profile to start with, all of the legacy stuff should give her a leg up.

Other schools we’re looking at are the other Claremont McKenna schools (she liked Scripps), and we’re going to visit Haverford this summer. She is also planning on visiting my mother in NYC after her programs at Georgetown and will tour Barnard, though I don’t think NYC would be a good fit for her.

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a few things - she should have a great adventure with this process
legitimate safety schools are a critical thing - both for the happiness of the student and financial wise make sense for the family
visit places with her and let her own the process - make sure that she takes even a tiny page of notes to connect with the process.
She is going to college in a few years - you already did - so try to use the we term as infrequently as possible (it helps her grasp the school better)
at this point visiting exact colleges isnt be all and end all - once she finds a that she likes then there are plenty of people here that can suggest similar feeling places
dont visit LACs during the summer - many of them will be dead quiet and all feel about the same
also - on tours look at the students that are there as students on campus because -
let’s do some math - 20 kids on a tour - maybe 10 apply - maybe 3 get in and one chooses to attend - and you are that one - so please dont compare yourself to the other kids on the tour (another helpful hint - whatever you do on the tour will receive eye rolls from your kid) -
also you will take time off to go visit a school and she won’t even get out of the car - you need to just nod approvingly and push on to the next place - it will happen

13

Not taking algebra at the honors level could be a red flag for schools like Williams, Amherst etc. You say she is taking AP stats next year. Will she take pre-calc or calculus at any point? Don’t think she will be competitive without at least pre calc. Has she had chem? How about physics? Top schools will look for those.

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@dla26 I’m a big fan of the Claremont Consortium, since my spouse is a CMC alum and one of my daughters is at Pomona. Pro tip: don’t call them the “Claremont Mckenna” schools. Claremont McKenna is one of the 5C’s, but each school is distinct, and has its own separate administration, faculty and admissions office. There is a (mostly) friendly rivalry among them and folks from the other 4C’s would wince at being called the “Claremont McKenna” schools.

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“Her counselor often encourages her to aim her sights lower so as to avoid disappointment, but I personally think she may have a shot at the Amhersts and Williams of the world. (Or at least the Pomonas.)”

First, Pomona is more difficult to get into than either Williams or Amherst, and these three and other top LACs routinely reject unhooked applicants with much better stats and ECs. Your daughter’s HS counselor is wise in trying to have your daughter avoid big disappointments as I’m sure she/he’s aware of today’s ultra-competitive admissions enough to know that these schools are reaches for your daughter. By all means, shoot for the reaches, but do not overly optimistic by ignoring the matches and the safeties.

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She took Honors Algebra 2 as a freshman. She tried to enroll in Math Analysis (the pre-calc course) but there was too much demand, and she couldn’t get in. As a result, she had to take regular Algebra 3. She will be taking AP Stats next year, and Math Analysis as a senior.

As a Freshman, she took both Honors Chemistry and Honors Physics. Both were 1-semester courses. The way the honors science track at her high school works is that they take Hon. Chem and Hon. Physics as a freshman, Honors Bio (2 semesters) as a sophomore, and then have 2 years for AP science classes. Next year she will be taking AP Environmental Science. I don’t think she’s settled on her plan for what science to take as a senior. Her Honors Physics grade is the lowest on her transcript - she got a B-. She got a B+ in Honors Chem, and a B+ in honors Bio 1st semester and an A in the 2nd semester.

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@swampdraggin - Good point about not visiting colleges during the summer. I had my own doubts about that as well. I was thinking that it might not be a bad idea since we’re roughly in the area, but maybe it would just wind up being a waste of time. (It’s a 2.5-hour drive from DC to Haverford and Swarthmore, so we were thinking of maybe driving out in the morning, doing 2 tours, and coming back in the evening.)

I do try to avoid pushing my own opinions onto my daughter. It can be difficult, since she and I are very similar in many ways, so things I would like/did like, I feel comfortable saying she would like as well. My other daughter is very different from me, so I’m not sure how much I’ll be able to help her with her process in picking even a category of schools to consider.

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@Corinthian - Thanks for the tip! My mistake! When she visited the campus(es), she toured both Scripps and CMC. She was surprised at how much she liked Scripps, since she wasn’t considering an all-women’s school before. I think she liked CMC, but it was hard to assess, since we were caught in an unseasonal torrential rainstorm. IIRC, there was a little too much emphasis on sports for her liking, but that was a minor negative in a huge sea of positives. The other school of the 5 she was most interested in was Pomona, but we have time for a tour.

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Check out the common data set that each school has-it is an excellent way to see percentages of students actually admitted and what their stats are. My son goes to a competitive public HS where the top third of the class takes between 8-15 AP classes, so each school is a bit different. Naviance is very useful, it is too bad if your school doesn’t use it.

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“but maybe it would just wind up being a waste of time”

In my opinion, it is a waste of time to visit during the summer, especially small colleges.