<p>yes, binx, Delta was right and yes I was hoping they wouldn't notice it or at the very least, not enforce it. It was for oversize anyway, not a 2nd piece of luggage in my son's situation. </p>
<p>It appears that Delta has had too many complaints and have finally made the clarification on their website. This was not stated on the website when my son flew out.</p>
<p>Violadad, you summed it just about right!</p>
<p>At least for the smaller instruments, why wouldn't this work:</p>
<p>You find out at the gate or on the plane that your case isn't allowed or won't fit overhead.
You remove the violin/viola/trumpet/etc from the case and allow them to take the case away, leaving you holding your instrument.
During takeoff and landing you place it carefully under the seat in front of you, cradling it with your feet, and stare at it the whole time.
For the rest of the flight, you hold it on your lap. You don't order anything to eat or drink and you don't try to look after any other belongings.</p>
<p>Not ideal, certainly, but isn't this a workable alternative in a pinch? Has anyone ever tried it?</p>
<p>Well....For my kid flying on Delta, they will be RIGHT if he isn't charged more. BUT if he has the proper documentation of when his ticket was PURCHASED (way long before the cost increases), will the airline charge him anyway (that would be contradictory to their website)? That is what I want to know. My kid is NOT trying to bamboozle the airlines. He bought his ticket BEFORE this policy went into effect and he has the documentation to prove it. Ditto DD who is flying United in three weeks and American at Thanksgiving. </p>
<p>So...again...if my kid HAS the info that verifies that his ticket was bought well in advance of the new luggage cost policies...will he be required to pay?</p>
<p>Depends entirely on the whim of the people who happen to be working that day. There is no piece of documentation that you can provide them with that will guarantee that they will not have to pay more. Sometimes the only choice you have is whether or not to get on the airplane.</p>
<p>Regarding holding the baby, I would not recommend putting any instrument on the floor of an aircraft during takeoffs and landings. There is simply too much vibration going on and most instruments have an irregular enough shape that cradling with the feet is not going to be very effective if the plane bounces hard on landing, for example. To cradle it with your feet, I presume you would have to take off your shoes and also stow them under the seat as well, reducing the amount of space available for the instrument and providing a couple of nearby projectiles in the event of a rough landing. Finally, not all seats have under-seat storage and if you happened to be assigned one of them, you could find yourself having to either hand over the instrument to a flight attendant or put it in the overhead WITHOUT A CASE. With food and beverages (at least on some flights) being handed around the cabin, the potential for items to fall from overhead bins and the possibility of hitting an air pocket at any time during flight, there is good reason to want to keep the instrument inside a custom fitted case with a hard exterior. </p>
<p>Another thing that occurs to me is that many of the small instruments that might fit under a seat would only do so when disassembled in their case. Something like a flute or clarinet would be too long when put together and you can't very well cradle three separate pieces with two feet.</p>
<p>Maybe we need someone to invent a case for small instruments that can be worn as a garment.</p>
<p>Anyone have experience flying with a tenor saxophone? Just purchased the recommended, form fitting travel bag. S definitely doesn't want to check it at all during upcoming round of auditions. Camp instructors and private teacher indicate a tenor can be carried on a plane, but none have traveled in last year or so. Would prefer more current traveling experience.
Thanks!</p>
<p>I don't believe there is any issue at all with cases that meet normal carryon dimensions. If the sax case fits those, you should be fine. My S2's French horn case is that way. It is a flight case, and every dimension, every direction, fits within the standards. The only time he has any trouble is when everyone has trouble - flying on a puddle jumper that doesn't have overhead storage or such. But even then, his horn has been well cared for. </p>
<p>And one time someone at a ticket counter tried to insist he check it. He refused, patiently and politely. He finally asked for a manager. He was allowed to proceed to the gate with the understanding that the gate attendants might make a different decision. The gate attentants never looked at him. This was on Air France, via Delta, in Germany. </p>
<p>The important thing to remember is that the airline has all the power, so you gain nothing by losing your temper. About all you can do is refuse to board, which is what S was prepared to do. </p>
<p>My D has also never had any real issues so far. Once, in Paris, she had to go to the ticket counter and obtain a form acknowledging the violin as an exception to the carryon rules. Fortunately, we had plenty of time, and there was no hassle, once we got someone to wait on us. Only hairy part was that they pulled her out of the line at the same time they pulled out some guy carrying tennis rackets - and he showed signs of creating a scene because they were calmly making an exception for my D while refusing to do so for him. He wanted me to "stand by him" and present a united front, and I was able to wiggle out of it. I was afraid he was going to bring us both down!</p>
<p>Because we know the violin exceeds the normal dimensions, we are careful to make sure D does not push the limits in quantity. I wouldn't let her take her laptop to camp for this reason. I think they are much more likely to ignore the violin if it is clear she isn't trying to take advantage of every last "right". She does carry a purse.</p>
<p>As far as the checked baggage goes, we are hoping that the fact that Delta has put their policy in writing on their website will mean something. (Maybe we can find a lawyer to fight a "bait and switch" if not?) Our rationale for carrying the printout is to try to keep the argument away from a "he said, she said" situation. S2 is only hoping to return home with the exact rules he left with. Two carryons (he does have his laptop), a regulation checked bag, and an extra checked bag that he pays $25 for. We'll see.</p>
<p>Something will have to give soon, though. There are going to be lots of repercussions with orchestras and musicians traveling otherwise.</p>
<p>Agreed with Binx. There will be repercussions for musicians. DS also has been prepared to NOT board planes when asked to check his instruments. He once had to check them (his case is very durable and designed to be checked if needed...but the theft issue has him worried). The flight attendant took the instruments (on a puddle jumper) and handed them to him when he was getting off the plane. No luggage carousel or anything like that. His case also meets the carry on specifications for all airlines (I keep waiting for them to change those!!). </p>
<p>DS will be doing some significant traveling this year and he does not need the added headache of worrying about his instruments. He has generally carried on his instruments and a small backpack which holds a very small amount of toiletries, medications and a change of underwear (just in case the baggage gets "misplaced"). </p>
<p>DD is another whole story, and we are hoping these new regulations and costs teach her the meaning of "pack light".</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would not recommend putting any instrument on the floor of an aircraft during takeoffs and landings.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Given the option of putting the baby or the instrument on the floor, it would not be the baby riding in my lap.</p>
<p>There is NO rhyme nor reason to the selective and arbitrary dictates imposed on the flying public and musicians in particular as to what any particular airline employee wants to allow or disallow. Depends completely on the employee, and the mood they're in. </p>
<p>I wonder, if they start to charge passengers by weight as it's been bantered about, I'd like to see their formula for arriving at prices. Before a per pound fee schedule is introduced, I hope they post surcharges on a per pound or pound range basis.</p>
<p>This way you can determine whether to wear heavy or light clothes, carry no change or heavy items and forgo lunch. If you fly naked, do you get a discount? :D</p>
<p>We are a light weight family. Our heaviest person is 142 pounds (no kidding). It really irritates my husband that our 110 pound daughter had to pay $50 extra for a bag that weighed 53 pounds...since even adding THAT to her weight would not equal the weight of many passengers alone. I keep wondering why they don't weigh carry on baggage. Especially with these new restrictions, I've seen some folks really struggling to move their bags...especially lifting their overweight carryon bags into the overhead bins.</p>
<p>I wonder what the musician's union is doing about this issue. Seems to me that this group should be at least trying to deal with this issue.</p>
<p>FYI -</p>
<p>They are weighing carry-ons in Europe. I agree that the musicians' union should be tackling this issue. It is going to present serious challenges to string players.</p>
<p>It will be interesting to see how they propose to implement charging by weight. Obligatory weigh-ins at boarding time? That will go over big with the general public.</p>
<p>As a large person myself, I would be willing to pay a 20%-30% weight premium if I got a slightly wider seat with a few more inches of legroom in return. Something on the order of what coach seats used to be like before the airlines had the need to cram in as many bodies as possible and flying each plane at or near capacity. I do not mind at all paying an extra $25 or so to reserve in advance a bulkhead or exit row seat, which provides a little more legroom if no more width. </p>
<p>I cannot afford the premium they charge for business class, but I can get by for a few hours without that much additional room. I try to be considerate, but I fully understand that you do not want me next to you overflowing a middle seat, or behind you with my knees pinned just behind your shoulders, preventing you from reclining your seat back at all.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I do not mind at all paying an extra $25 or so to reserve in advance a bulkhead or exit row seat, which provides a little more legroom if no more width. >></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Gee Bassdad....I think some airlines are already charging an extra fee for bulkhead, exit row and aisle seats...you wish has been granted!! I heard that some airlines are charging for selecting seats..period. Unbelievable.</p>
<p>I agree that the seats are much smaller and crammed together. Even as a somewhat smaller person, I find my knees bumping against the seat in front of me...and I can't really move much. If I put something on the floor under the seat in front of me, I may as well cross my legs on the seat for all the room I have on the floor.</p>
<p>Re: problems for string players...yes, they will have problems (especially the larger instruments), but brass players will have weight issues if things change. </p>
<p>I think I'll design the "oboe hat". What do you think? It will be like having a plume out of the top of a hat, but it will be the oboe. Of course, it will be in a clear lexan case for protection with some beautiful velvet padding.</p>
<p>Yes, I know that most are airlines already charging the fee for reserving choice seats ahead of time. I for one am happy to be able to do that even if it costs an extra $25 because I have a slightly better chance of getting that precious extra few inches than I used to.</p>
<p>Southwest still has pretty liberal overall baggage policies: no charge for 2 checked bags. 3rd one is $25 and 4-9 are $50 each. Seems eminently reasonable.</p>
<p>They still allow one carryon plus one "personal item". What is not certain is whether they will get stricter than in the past about the size of the carryon. The smallest violin case I can find is about 30" long and the maximum published length is 24". While my son's violin case has a total volume smaller than the overall measurement requirements, it is long. They have an added stipulation for musical instruments as follows:</p>
<p>"If your musical instrument does not meet the sizing requirements for carryon items (10x16x24), it will be handled as checked baggage provided you do not wish to purchase a seat for the instrument.</p>
<p>"In the event you are traveling with a musical instrument that is larger than our sizing requirements for carryon luggage and is fragile in nature, you may purchase a seat for the instrument and carry it in the cabin under the following conditions:</p>
<p>-the instrument must fit in the seat without blocking aircraft signage and be secured with a seatbelt
-the instrument must be placed in the first row and in a seat closer to the window than any other Customer in that row
-reservations must be made and a ticket must be purchased at a charge no greater than the Child's Fare. Musical instruments cannot be transporter in place of a free companion under any fare promotion.</p>
<p>"Instruments that are transported in a soft-sided case or other packaging that is not strong enough to protect the instrument under normal baggage handling conditions will be conditionally accepted, which means that Southwest assumes no liability for any damage sustained to the item during transport."</p>
<p>While I know that the personnel often let violins go, this is not very reassuring. I am going to look into what is involved in buying the kind of crate that orchestras use to take instruments on tour. I do not want my son's travel plans to always be hostage to the whims of any particular person who happens to be at the desk on any given day. </p>
<p>So far, we have only had a problem with SWA once and that was a number of years ago on a packed plane which we boarded last. Since then, we have always made a point to be in the first boarding group so there is plenty of overhead space when we arrive and this has worked. </p>
<p>Since SWA is the preferred transport for my son to and from Indiana, I would be interested to hear of anyone's recent experiences.</p>
<p>I am soooo glad he is not auditioning this year. It would be very nerve-wracking to have to also worry about this amidst the myriad concerns during audition travel!</p>
<p>More on cases:</p>
<p>I've found that there is a violin case made by Bam which is 25" long (1" longer than the maximum so still a slight risk). It doesn't have a place for the bow (for obvious reasons), but it has a place to attach a bow "cylinder" which you can buy separately and carry as your "personal item". It's expensive, but not as expensive as either having your instrument ruined, refusing a seat on booked flights or buying a second seat every time you travel. At Shar you can get the case for $476 and the bow holder for $25. We are thinking about it.</p>
<p>Good instrument cases ARE expensive. DS's was about $900, and is a custom Wiseman case. It fits the size dimensions for a carry on bag AND is durable enough to be checked. My son's issue is NOT the durability of his case to protect the instruments. It's the fear of loss or theft.</p>
<p>Just before D left for Oregon, we took her violin to a local shop and got a written appraisal. The insurance she has limits coverage without the appraisal. Everyone should make sure they know how their instrument insurance works. (And if you don't have insurance, get it. Airlines will only pay some paltry bit for "lost luggage." International flights pay even less!) A written receipt from the purchase also works (unless it is worth much more than you paid for it.) </p>
<p>And make sure your insurance covers both damage and theft. Bad enough to lose your instrument - much worse to not be able to afford to replace it!</p>
<p>And just to tag on to binx's point, organizations such as Am. Fed of Musicians, Am. String Teachers Association, MENC, Chamber Music America, all offer special members rates at the main instrument insurers (Clarion, Mertz-Huber, etc).</p>
<p>To tag on even further, the savings on insurance premiums can amount to more than the annual dues of the organization.</p>