My D has a math disability. She has a 504 and has taken Alg 1, Geometry, and Alg 2, (all college track, but not honors) but decided not to go for a 4th math because she will not be a math major in college.
However, her top choice requires the 4th unit of math. It can be pre-calc or stats. For a student that has a very hard time with math, and it will probably be all remote, which one would you suggest? Pre-calc or Stats?
Stats is typically considered an easier math course.
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Note that many majors other than math do require calculus. If any of her possible majors is such a major, precalculus will be necessary to prepare for calculus (better to take it over a year in high school than as a semester-long remedial course in college).
However, if she will not require precalculus or calculus for her major, then she needs only to be concerned about math or quantitative reasoning general education requirements. In many colleges, this may only require precalculus or statistics (but a AP statistics score or college math placement score may be required to waive the requirement). However, if the college does require more, it would help to have the course that helps complete the requirement.
For a student who does not need to take additional math in college, an understanding of statistics is generally useful.
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I think the majority of kids should go for stats… it’s a practical life skill. Obviously if you want to do math, physics, etc as a major then you do pre-calc.
In fact there is a TED talk on this topic. Arthur Benjamin: Teach statistics before calculus! | TED Talk.
If the link is blocked, search for “ted talk statistics calculus”
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@ucbalumnus the poster says her student has a math disability. That being the case, I would imagine it’s unlikely this student is going to major in something requiring calculus.
My son was not a terrific math student. His senior year, he took statistics one semester and economics the other semester. He was a music performance major who absolutely never needed to take calculus (or precalculus for that matter).
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Statistics.
Then, look at the offerings for the math gen eds at the colleges she’s considering: some, like Finite Math at Indiana, are pure torture even for those who do well with math. Others, like “Math for citizenship” or “Math and money” (at Penn state) are open to anyone with a basic understanding of arithmetics and algebra and focus on applying math concepts to every day life issues.
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hard to say for sure without knowing a lot more - like her target school, qualifications and academic interests but, given what I know, I’d lean towards stats.
if she needs higher math in college, she can take it there.
Thank you, all! We chose Elementary Stats C so that she can get dual enrollment credits and hopefully knock off one math requirement in college.
I would have her look at her potential major at your State U (or a college she would like to attend) and see what the requirements for math are. If it is Calculus then go for pre-calc…(although that might make that not the right major for her)…if Stats go for stats.
Sounds a lot like my daughter. Unfortunately at her small school they discontinued the Stats class a few years ago. I would definitely have picked that for her if available. She now has to decide between toughing it out in PreCalc or going with Math IV (more stats, etc).
I personally wish there was more flexibility in high school courses. This kid is never going to need trig or calculus in her life. She’s a Creative Writing major. She does excellent on her English and Reading practice ACTS, but that math, whew. Just a shame that the US education system makes kids take classes that they will never need and it’s the same on the other end. Why should math kids have to take 4 years of English?
There is this idea that every high school graduate should have a well rounded basic education.
If you read these forums long enough, you may encounter students who have difficulty writing posts that clearly state the relevant information they want to convey. You may also encounter students who have difficulty calculating their GPAs.
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I like the UK system better where they go through 10th/11th grade and get their GSCEs and then start two years of Sixth Form (when they are 16/17) specializing in three or four A-level subjects. I’m not that keen on the big exams at the end, but other than that it seems like a better system.
Lyceé in France seems similar. Basically these systems let the students begin to specialize when they are 17 & 18 and start to study subjects they may want to major in at university. Then they jump right into their major in university w/o a bunch of Gen Ed subject requirements.
This is a big reason that my daughter is looking at going to university in the UK, because she already knows what she wants to study and doesn’t want to do a bunch of extraneous Gen Ed classes, plus she also wants to live in another part of the world for awhile.
Because “math kids” will need to interact with other people and have cogent, meaningful conversations in their life. And, believe it or not, a “math kid” at 16 may not be a math adult. I have no issues with an education system that provides a multi-faceted education through high school.
Curious, when do you propose a “math kid” is labeled? Does that also mean no History? Social Studies? Foreign Language? Do you consider the writing, communications and other GenEd requirements of top Engineering schools (and required for accreditation) a waste?
(Fwiw, this “math kid” - 2 years advanced, 800 SAT back when it was rare, AMC award winner, Engineer who later decided to get an MBA and become a management consultant is quite glad I had the fundamental background enabling me to interact with corporate Senior management in meaningful conversations.)
Fwiw, Sociology majors also need to take out mortgages, invest money, and avoid pyramid schemes. College seniors who can’t calculate a GPA may have trouble in these aspects of real life
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Sweetgum- I was a mathophobe until graduate school when I had to take a mandatory math class before starting the program. I came to a shocking discovery-- if you are bad at math, you get bad math teachers. That was my story through HS. And I successfully avoided math in college. But my program required passing this math class- which was taught by an A+ incredible teacher, who knew that every single student in the class had had bad experiences in math before (hence our remedial placement) and was just a dynamo at explaining things, making math real.
The class started at first grade arithmetic and ended having covered one semester of calculus. I got an A which was the first A I had ever gotten in math- and truthfully- it was an easy A because the professor was so outstanding.
My kids were all “math kids” and they ALWAYS had fantastic teachers, and of course- it’s just a big self-affirming cycle. You are good at math, you have good math teachers, you love math, you are good at math-- there you go.
I use math a shocking amount in my work. I will never be a math person, but it is incredibly empowering to have someone send me a spreadsheet with dense calculations and not to break out in hives. It is incredibly empowering to read an analysis of vaccination rates, or inflation in Asia, or how the Brazilian virus can be both more contagious but less deadly than the South African one-- and to actually understand the graphs, be able to follow the math.
Your D has no idea what her future will hold, and finding a way to demystify math is going to open a lot of doors for her. If I remember correctly, your D wants to be a writer? The most gifted speechwriter I ever hired had majored in English and minored in math. He has been incredibly successful because in addition to being a fantastic writer, you can send him a dense deck with data from the federal reserve, or a chart with calculations on carbon emissions, or an analysis on recycling trends-- and he can isolate the three main, incredibly interesting points— and ignore everything else which he calls “the background noise”. He has had a stellar career since then- distinguished in no small part by his math skills!
I’ve posted before about buying carpet at Home Depot the day the “system” was down, and watching salespeople, assistant store managers, and the manager run around like crazy people trying to figure out the square footage, the price, do you multiply or divide? maybe you just add them together, was super sad. I just said, “The room is 10 by 12, here’s how much I need, here’s the price plus tax (they were super impressed that I could calculate sales tax without a computer), can you put in the order?”
Like I was Albert Einstein. Which I am not. But getting to some proficiency in math before your formal education ends is a really good thing.
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I’ve long thought statistics was a class everyone should take simply to make them better citizens. There are so many garbage studies and conspiracy theories out there that are easily dismissed by people with a basic knowledge of statistics.
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All I’m saying is I like the UK system as I understand it better than our system. I know we have a few UK folks here on CC so, correct me if I have this wrong, but the way I understand it is students do their GCSEs (General Certificate of Secondary Education) when they are about 15/16 (it’s their year 11, but it is the same as 10th grade because Kindy is not grade 1 here). After they do their GCSEs the last two years before university when most kids are 17 & 18 are spent in sixth form where they begin to specialize. The first year in sixth form (lower sixth) they usually take 4 subjects to study with an eye toward their course of study in university and then the second year (upper sixth) they usually drop one of the four and continue to specialize in 3 subjects. These are their A-levels (Advanced level qualifications ). I think that is a better system than keeping on with subjects you know you are not interested in.
And then—get this—when you go to university in England or Wales, you do your course of study and none of the other subjects. You can do joint honors where you study two subjects, but it is ALL those subjects – no Gen Ed Math requirement or freshman English or PE (I had to pass a swim test to graduate college). For my daughter it will be all English and Creative Writing. For other students it might be Biochemistry & Microbiology, but whatever it is, it’s all that, nothing else. In Scotland you can take a few other subjects, but it is mostly your course of study.
Many countries in the world have something similar to this. We are the outliers. I think our educational system can work well for some kids who don’t have a clue what they want to do (me), but for other kids who know what they want to do (or know what they don’t want to do) it’s frustrating to be required to take classes that they don’t and won’t need.
I also think kids would be better served in high school to have more electives and fewer required courses overall.
@Sweetgum I think they would be better served to take required courses but feel allowed to take “fun” electives on things that interest them
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I agree everyone should have math, but I think we do a disservice by pushing pre-calc and calc. They aren’t needed by everyone. My D was told she couldn’t take AP Stats because she didn’t have Pre-calc, despite having an A+ in intro to Stats. She wants to a a psych major. I feel like high schools are pushing everyone to STEM.
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There are pluses to the UK/French systems. But there are also big drawbacks. For one, how does any kid know what they want to do when they are 16. Few do. The systems you like promote specializing early. Great for the kid who knows what they want. Not so much for others.
I spoke to a Greek woman once at a cocktail party. She is a heart surgeon. We were comparing notes about our education. Mine ( without going into details) included multiple changes in majors, careers and I was still able to build several careers in multiple areas ( with various degrees) . She said that’s amazing. Once she committed to medicine there was no going back. She realized she would have preferred another field but to change meant to start again. And her family could not pay twice.
I think the idea of a liberal arts education where people receive basic understanding in many fields and learn to think and engage is really important. My kids are into STEM, but even in that respect the idea of them deciding what to do at 16 makes zero sense to me.
It’s great there’s both systems in the world. Today kids in the US can go to England and kids in England can come to the US. I’m sure there are lots of people for whom their system works, or doesn’t.
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