<p>My nephew, a senior, has a 550 math 580 verbal (taken twice) and a 3.1, (4.0 scale) with 1 AP and two honors courses. He wants to pursue pre-med. I wonder about his chance of success. My B wants to tell him to find another (easier) major. He would attend the State U. Would anyone care to speculate as to what SAT score (math/verbal) is linked to success in a "pre-med" program? I mean obviously a 1480 has a better chance of survival than a 1130.. but there are exceptions...right? Should my B as a parent "kill the dream" ? If it were your S or D what kind of SAT and or stats would you look for before advocating his/her trip down this very difficult pre-med road?</p>
<p>Since premed is not a major--only a set of prerequisite classes (inorganic chem, organic chem, bio (2 with labs), physics (2) are the basics)--you can major in anything and just fulfill those classes in addition to your major. I would not discourage him. Let him start on those classes in college and see what he thinks--he may love it and excel or decide it's not what he wants. I would rather he make the decision for himself than tell him you don't believe. His college work may be totally different than his effort in high school--boys mature a lot after high school.</p>
<p>Encourage him to chose a major (and most schools don't have a student declare until soph. year) that he is interested in and that will leave other doors open for him. Students go to med school from many, many majors--not just science ones.</p>
<p>I think he's got a decent chance of doing all right in the pre-med required courses. My worry for him would be the MCATs. They count pretty highly in med school admissions. He wouldn't be interested in nursing would he?</p>
<p>Do NOT kill the dream. He'll find out soon enough if he has what it takes to compete at the next level. Successful med school applicants have an average of a 3.5 college gpa overall and in the college sciences, so his chances are not great -- he'd have to perform significantly better in college than he did in HS, which does happpen, but rarely.</p>
<p>In any event, let your nephew try inorganic chem and calc in college and see how he does. A slew of C's and he'll come to his own realization. OTOH, hopefully, he'll surprise you.</p>
<p>btw: what makes premed at even more difficult is that many kids taking the college science courses already took them as an AP in high school, but they repeat the class for the "easy" A. Thus, the curves are brutal.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Well this is not a kid who made a half-hearted effort in HS. (Should have mentioned that in original post) Thus, there will be no new found work effort or awakening of any sort. He worked in HS to get those stats as indicated in post #1, 1130 SAT, 3.1 GPA. If he is going to go down in flames wouldn't you be remiss as parent if you did not at least try to convince him to pursue a less difficult group of courses. I mean if you need a 1300 math/verbal to even have a prayer in that ciriculum I guess I would let him know that and spare him the humiliation.. and probably the inevitable, "Why didn't YOU tell me!" No mathmom, no interest in Nursing, unfortunately.</p>
<p>I still would not kill the dream. Of course talk to him about how difficult these courses are, but he will find out on his own. I also am not too set on SAT predicting science aptitude--it is so heavily weighted toward verbal. My son didn't do that great on SAT and so far (fingers crossed) is doing very well in premed curriculum at a school know for grade deflation (is working butt off though). The other consideration is the type of college he attends--some are easier than others and he may be able to maintain a very respectable gpa--then the crunch will be MCAT preparation (as mathmom said). Let him figure it out--you don't want him to say/feel in a few years that he "could have"...but you talked him out of it.</p>
<p>I don't know the stats, but I know the number of graduating high school seniors who say they want premed and the number who actually apply is vastly different. Some don't have the grades, some find other interests, some decide that many years of school isn't for them and many, many more reasons. There is absolutely no shame in trying a major or a "track" on for size and deciding against it---how else do they learn?</p>
<p>Be supportive and let him know the bottom line is you want him to discover in college what interests him. After his interests are more fully defined, he will know. (Of course, still waiting for my 22 year old to determine that :))</p>
<p>Nightingale, a researcher named Rosalie Fink looked at the backgrounds of high-achieving adults, including Nobel prize winners, who had struggled with learning to read as children, to determine what it was that helped them succeed. How does a kid who struggles all the way through their early years end up becoming famous doctors and scientists? </p>
<p>She found that the elements for success were that all were driven by a passionate interest, that they came from families that had high expectations for them, and that the ones who succeeded in the sciences had strong mentors. Unfortunately for the women, their families tended to discourage pursuit of the sciences and they had fewer mentors, which meant that very few of them succeeded in scientific fields -- though many were successful in other fields, such as law or social work. </p>
<p>You can find this work summarized here:
<a href="http://www.careertrainer.com/Request.jsp?lView=ViewArticle&Article=OID%3A33637%5B/url%5D">http://www.careertrainer.com/Request.jsp?lView=ViewArticle&Article=OID%3A33637</a></p>
<p>Even if your nephew doesn't have a learning disability like the 60 accomplished adults who participated in Fink's research -- I would think that the ingredients for success would be the same for anyone: high motivation coupled with a supportive & encouraging family, and mentors to provide help and guidance where needed. </p>
<p>If your goal is to discourage your nephew and make sure that he does not succeed, then I guess it would help to remind him constantly that everyone in the family thinks he's kind of stupid. Sorry -- but no matter how gently you try to dissuade him, that's what he'll feel you are saying -- the bottom line is that you are telling him you don't think he's smart enough to be a doctor.</p>
<p>If he has gotten into the university, then he is good enough to attempt any major that is open to him there. He will figure out soon enough what he is capable of. You don't have to worry about protecting his feelings while he is in college -- if he has been struggling all along, then he is already used to hard work and disappointment. The fact that he aspires to med school shows that he has persistence and drive. </p>
<p>I think that you and your nephew's brother should back off and let your nephew make his own college choices. The courses he needs for premed are relevant to any career in the sciences, and even if he doesn't become a doctor, a degree in sciences might be a big help in his future career. So let him do his best and figure out on his own where things shake out. </p>
<p>If he succeeds -- and I hope he does -- then I guess he'll have the last laugh for everyone who has ever doubted from. If he fails... at least let him fail on his own, without being nudged in that direction by skeptical family members.</p>
<p>no, I still wouldn't kill the dream. Perhaps he'll take a liking to bio, or something else where a background in the sciences will be valuable. A good friend started out premed, majored in Chem with Cs and Bs and went on to grad school and is happy as a clam. Let him decide.</p>
<p>Passion can make up for a lot. I'd really focus on making sure that he finds a major, and a school that he really enjoys. </p>
<p>You probably can't use SAT as a judge of being able to handle pre-med, but there certainly correlations between all standardized tests. Some people just test well. I used to work for Kaplan, doing MCAT prep, and because we were a small center, the MCAT instructors typically had to fill in for other science based tests (DAT, PCAT, etc) and had to take the practice exams to get close to qualifying marks. It was a common phrase for someone about to do that for the first time, that "if you're good at one standardized test, you're good at all of them".</p>
<p>I don't know of any exact ratios/score formulas/rules of thumb for correlating the SAT to the MCAT (supposedly, the ACT score +/- 2 points works fairly well, and there is a well established one for the LSAT and old SAT), but there is some correlation. However, even then someone who hasn't tested well in the past can come in, with proper preparation and do really well.</p>
<p>You'd be surprised at the stats that get people into medical school. They're certainly not frequent, but they do happen. Hit an interviewer the write way, really show your dedication to medicine, and sometimes things happen. But keep in mind that's a long ways off.</p>
<p>The point should be that he needs to focus on being competitive as he builds his resume. There is no ONE thing that will guarantee a spot in medical school, you really do have to have it all - grades, MCAT, research, volunteering/clinical experience, campus involvement, leadership experience, etc. Being competitive, depending on his state of residence, means he should be shooting for a 3.5 GPA and 27 on the MCAT. It's certainly no guarantee, but depending on the other aspects of his resume, those scores won't categorically get him eliminated (unless he lives in CA, because of it's size has the most competitive public admissions in the country). There's a whole host of other things to consider, some of them years off, so just see how he gets through first semester chemistry.</p>
<p>My D is a senior biology major and will be taking the MCAT this summer and applying to med school. She had the same math SAT but higher verbal and quite a bit higher high school GPA. Her college GPA is almost exactly the same as in high school (3.75 now with two semesters to go). She has found some of the pre-med courses very difficult (especially organic chemistry). She has to study much harder than she did in high school.</p>
<p>I think your B should be encouraging his son to keep his options open as he starts college and not get too set on one track. Encourage him to see how he does in math through calculus and in first-year chemistry and then to decide on his major. You really have to be on track all through undergrad to get into medical school (only about 50% get in). That means really good grades in math and science (med schools look at those grades separately).</p>
<p>SAT scores are first year indicators. Nothing more. Pre-med subjects can be studied for and passed with the right amount of effort. I would never discourage anybody. Kids often slide through HS without studying because they can and when college comes around they can buckle down. People take this SAT bs way too far.</p>
<p>Personally, I'd rather try and fail and blame my parent for not warning me, than not try and blame my parent for discouraging me.</p>
<p>I wouldn't worry so much about the pre-med classes as I would worry about chances of getting into medical school, where a high college GPA is required. Honestly, a kid who works hard for a 3.1 in high school is probably going to have trouble getting in the high threes in college, which is what med schools look for. I'd say that concern falls to the student, though. You can encourage him to read about the pre-med program and about getting into medical school, but once he starts pre-med classes in college he will either find that it's too much for him and find a different direction, or he will succeed and keep on heading down that road. There's little harm with letting him try the classes and figure this out for himself. It's not your job to protect him from experiencing failure. Let me assure you, he wouldn't be the only student to opt out of pre-med after taking one of the courses.</p>
<p>A lot of it depends on personality type. On the Meiers-Briggs scale all of the SPs (sensing perceiving) in medical school seem to be very bright. That's because they have to be to get to medical school. They are very disorganized. On the other hand an SJ (sensing judging) can keep it together and work his way into medical school. It sounds as if the young man of whom we are speaking is very hard working. Don't discourage him, but don't let him sign up for the accelerated curriculum once he gets to medical school.</p>
<p>It is not a parent's place to "kill the dream." I imagine there are many successful MDs out there today whose high school GPAs and SAT scores weren't particularly impressive. </p>
<p>Every kid has the right not only to dream about a career path, but to find out whether he/she can make it happen.</p>
<p>Hey, there are successful people in all walks of life who volunteer as EMT's, serve meals in homeless shelters, spend their vacations working as aides to vaccinate thousands of kids in Africa. If your nephew discovers that med school is not for him but that he has a burning passion to repair the world, he will find his own way....or, he will work his way into med school, or discover an interest in PT or public health or forensics or whatever. What is to be gained by undermining his confidence now? It's not like declaring himself a "pre-med" means much.</p>
<p>If he is that hardworking, he should go for it. He might surprise you. On the other hand, my son's General Chemistry class freshman year were mostly pre meds, but after the first semester, almost half of them decided premed was not for them.</p>
<p>The premed courses serve as an excellent base for many careers other than medicine and are required in nearly all medical based careers even if he does not end up as a doctor. It's not as though the classes taken are going to be "wasted". My friend's daughters who had stats lower than your nephew started out as nursing majors, and are now medical clerks earning excellent salaries processing medical and insurance paperwork. The bio and chem courses they took were valuable in giving them a good jump start in this field. Premed is an area where many kids jump ship. The med school acceptance rates are nearly worthless because of the fact that it does not take into account those kids who started out premed and ended up dropping it along the way. By the time a kid is actually at the point of applying to med school,he has already gone through the gauntlet of the preparatory courses, and if does not have the grades needed to get into a med school, it is unlikely he will apply. Some college actually gatekeep by only sanctioning those apps that look likely to get accepted.</p>
<p>Another thought--you don't have to be a science major to go to medical school. Your nephew could take the minimum science requirements for med school application, and finish a major in another field. It seems unlikely that someone with your N's high school record/scores could make it to med school, but I wouldn't discourage him. He'll find out soon enough what he can/can't handle. Sometimes the other pre-med students are enough to scare people away--they can be quite a high stress bunch. His parents should just remind him how hard it will be and how hard he'll have to work. And let him know they're proud of him whatever major/career he chooses.</p>
<p>He'll figure it out in college. I know a lot of people who started pre-med and were weeded out by organic chem, etc. Many are happy and successful, including a patent attorney and an engineer.</p>
<p>Reminds me of the joke, however:</p>
<p>What do you call someone who graduates last in their med school class?
.
.
.
.
"Doctor"</p>