Pre-Med USA/ British Med Schools

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>Hello everyone,
my first post on CC.
I just had a few questions which I was hoping to get some outside advice on from people who have knowledge in this field.</p>

<p>Im currently a high school junior and I would really like to attend a Med School in London. They have 5 year med programs and over in the UK, medicine is in an Undergraduate degree. The schools i was looking at are Kings College London, Imperial College London, Oxford (yes i know its like impossible to get in but my parents want me to try if i apply to any UK schools), and Barts and the London School of Medicine.
My reasoning for applying to these schools, is the fact that I would love to get right to medicine and start learning as early as possible, as well as I would love to live in the UK even if it was only for the 5 years of schooling as I realize getting an extended visa past student status is quite difficult. In an optimal situation I would love to work there after a degree but that too seems difficult due to EU visa restrictions, so that would leave me applying to residencies back in the US.
I understand the importance of the USMLE step scores , LORS, and USCE in applying back to the US and also the fact that being an FMG leaves you at a slight disadvantage in comparison to the US graduate counterparts. </p>

<p>So....
In the international medicine community, how well regarded are Imperial College and Kings College London, especially in the eyes of a residency director? As of know im looking at General Surgery which is hard for FMG's as well as Cardiology residency. Getting into these schools will also be a challenge but regardless I would like to know how well these schools are regarded in the US?
I've met the prereqs for the schools and would still have to take the UKCAT and the BMAT but here are the rest of my stats</p>

<p>SATS 2110 (still waiting on June results)
Bio SAT 670 (retaking)
Chem SAT 660 (retaking)</p>

<p>PREDICTED AP GRADES (which are the equivalent to the A-Level qualifications necessary for acceptane to the british schools.)</p>

<p>11th grade
AP Macro 5
AP Micro 5
AP US History 5</p>

<p>12 grade Predicted AP Grades:
AP Chem 5
AP Bio 5
AP English 5
AP Spanish 4/5
AP Euro 5</p>

<p>Extracirricular's
Captain of Debate team and varsity debator for 4 years.
Vice President of Cultural Exchange program with Czech and German students.
EMT for my town's Ambulance Corps.
High School Representative to the Mayor and Town Council.
Varsity Golfer for 3 years.
Varsity Soccer for 2 years.
JV Baseball and Football 2 years.
NHS, FBLA, Bio team etc.... more</p>

<p>If anyone knows of my admissions chances to Oxford with these which i realize are slim to none please let me know, and also about the prestige of Imperial and Kings College London. My parents seem to think that apparently Kings College London isn't regarded well because they checked the rankings and its ranked 27th-30th in the world for medicine. </p>

<p>Also how about for Georgetown International Health, what do you think the advantages/disadvantages are and what do you think my chances are?</p>

<p>Also how are British schools compared to Caribbean med schools for a Residency?</p>

<p>thanks so much in advance would appreciate any advice i can get!</p>

2

<p>FMGs are not at a slight disadvantage, they are at a HUGE disadvantage, even with tippy top boards scores. Either relocate permanently to the EU, look into the 6 or 7 year bs/md programs here ( for which I think your sat is currently way too low but I am actually not that familiar) or spend 4 years in UG and then go to med school.</p>

3

<p>Brown is correct-- FMGs regardless of where they study are matched in US residencies last–only after all US allopathic and osteopathic medical grads are have matched.</p>

<p>Take a look at Table 2 results by specialty and applicant type for the 2012 residency match</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There were only about 120 surgical residency positions (either categorical or preliminary) offered to US IMGs out of over ~2500 openings. Horrible odds!</p>

4

<p>@WOWMom,

</p>

<p>This may or may not be good policy, but I don’t think this is how they do it now.</p>

5

<p>Do you think residency directors take into account med school rankings at all? Or for FMGS, international med school prestige/rankings in making decisions on residency positions? Also i was reading about how King’s had 6 medical research centers which would hopefully allow some side research to aid my residency application. Apparently also, King’s is the largest clinical training place in all of Europe with international partners including Hopkins, Cornell, UPENN, and Emory.
Appreciate any advice.</p>

6

<p>

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<p>Of all the things program directors take into consideration when deciding who to interview and who to rank, this is almost certainly one of the least important.</p>

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<p>My guess is that an FMG from the UK is likely to be viewed more positively than an FMG from the Caribbean, but you know what’s viewed the most positively? A great applicant from an American or Canadian school.</p>

7

<p>I’m not trying to be mean or rude or abrasive with this post–just figured I’d play some devil’s advocate and be pretty direct. </p>

<p>The thing is, you are taking a HUGE gamble with your future should you decide to go this route. Here are a few reasons I can come up with off the top of my head:</p>

<p>-You will be at a HUGE disadvantage for residency positions, per above posters. You must do a residency in order to practice (read: work as a doctor) in the US. No residency, no job. Not a good thing if you’re in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.</p>

<p>-You will be applying to residencies when you’re what, 23? That’s at best 3 years younger than other applicants, probably more given the older avg age of med students. And the thing is, med student don’t usually use that time just to goof off and have fun–they’re doing impressive things like research, getting additional degrees, working in (or starting, lol) clinics, etc. So in addition to being at a disadvantage because of your FMG status, you’ll also be at a disadvantage because of your lack of life experience. Sure, you could argue that living abroad is good life experience; I just find it hard to believe that it would be good enough to compensate for all that you’d probably be missing. </p>

<p>-You’ll be up and moving for 5 years to a country that’s quite far away. If you’ve never lived abroad before, that could be a huge gamble in and of itself because you will suddenly be without the support networks you’re familiar with, all at a time when your academic stress level will be skyrocketing. Your friends and family probably won’t be able to drop everything and come to the rescue for a long weekend when you’re homesick (and trust me, you’ll want them to!). Adjusting to a new life is tough; I imagine it’s even tougher if you’re abroad. Sure, there’s a lot of joy and exhilaration in the journey, but that doesn’t mean you have to sabotage yourself along the way.</p>

<p>-You’ll miss out on a traditional undergraduate experience, which many individuals (and American med schools) really value. Additionally, you probably wouldn’t be eligible to apply to American med schools should you change your mind (because your program will be so specialized). </p>

<p>-So far, it seems like your primary reasons for wanting to go there are 1) so you’ll graduate sooner so you can get right into medicine and 2) you love London. Are you 100% sure you want to go into medicine? Many people think they do and end up changing their mind somewhere down the road. Have you shadowed physicians? Are you familiar with the currently politics of health care? Do you have an idea what you want to do with your future? Do you have a decently good handle on the level of work that goes into med school and medicine? If the answer to any of those questions is no, then I think it would be a great idea for you to go to college before med school so you can have some time to figure it out. Have you ever thought about studying abroad in London rather than going to school there permanently? Getting a Master’s there after you graduate from undergrad (seems like all the rage right now)? As far as getting into the medical field sooner, why? You’ll have your whole entire life (probably the next…50+ years) to work grueling hours. College is a helluva fun time (I refuse to say it’s the best years of your life) for a variety of reasons, including the opportunity to grow up as a person–I can’t imagine wanting to sacrifice that in order to get out to the work world earlier than necessary (but we may differ there!). </p>

<p>No need to respond to this post or those questions–this is really just intended as some food for thought for you!</p>

8

<p>I think i can understand and appreciate now that maybe my initial goal is a little naive but i think i have been misunderstood.
My main reasons for applying (or still thinking about applying) there are because I would eventually like to work in England which i understand getting visas for is not likely. Also the number of years spent in med school are not a factor so yes, while it would be great to finish in 5 years or more likely 6 (intercalated Bsc) it is not my main deciding factor. </p>

<p>I just think that their system makes much more sense to me. Ie. If you know you want to be a doctor then why do all of the pre-medicine requirement just to get into med school instead of incorporating all the science needed in med school. Once again i realize thats a little naive and i hope i don’t get yelled at for saying that but thats just kind of the view i currently have. </p>

<p>EDIT: ALSO if this helps for any of the questions listed here i have no plans on doing academic medicine but would much rather do clinical work.</p>

<p>Also i had another question…How does where you do your residency affect your future job placements and do residencies give preference to candidates from specific medical schools even if they are the same in USMLE’s, LOR’s etc…?</p>

<p>And if anyone does know, (sorry for so many questions), i understand it is difficult for non-Eu’s status residents to obtain jobs in the EU and especially the UK, but do you think that if i were to attend a UK school i would be able to find a placement after Foundation years 1&2 in the UK.</p>

<p>I know this is a lot to ask and i just wanted to say that i really appreciate everyone’s advice no matter how “abrasive”. I just really wanna somehow find a way to live out my life plans or goals and not just stick with the typical route. Also im not trying to sound like im ignoring any of the advice you are giving me, its just tough relinquishing the idea of what i want to do in life so to speak. </p>

<p>"Have you ever thought about studying abroad in London rather than going to school there permanently? "
yes that is my plan as of now but once again the reason for the thread is to explore the idea of my just full out enrolling in school in the UK.</p>

9

<p>I think this is the wrong forum to be asking such specific questions. Almost no one here knows how UK medical schools work. I lived in London for two years and have had several family members go through UK medical schools. Unfortunately, my knowledge is very limited but here’s what I know:</p>

<p>Getting into medical school in the UK is incredibly competitive. Ask yourself if you’d get into Harvard if you applied. Would you? No? Then you won’t get into the Oxford (and other top such as Cambridge, UCL, ICL or King’s) medical schools either. Students literally have to get A*s (2400 SAT) scores to get into any medical school in the UK. Furthermore, Oxford medical school admitted 2 international applicants of the 238 applied. That’s about 1%. I believe US medical schools (and Harvard undergrad) all hover around 5-10%. </p>

<p>Furthermore, you save NO TIME. Their residencies are at a minimum 1 year longer, and many people take an extra few years to get a PhD in London because getting a consultant (attending) position is very competitive (if you stick to London anyway). </p>

<p>Plus, what are you in such a rush for? Enjoy college and take a few extra classes. If I hadn’t I would have applied MD-only vs. MD/PhD. I think you will find you learn a lot about yourself by taking classes you didn’t think you’d like. </p>

<p>Finally to everyone saying that the prestige of medical school doesn’t matter, I met many Oxford doctors in London who did part of their training at top 10 US medical schools (UCSF and Hopkins come to mind). Rumor has it that Hopkins saves a residency spot for the top Oxford graduate every year. But everyone else is right in saying that you have a better chance at getting a top US residency by attending a top US medical school.</p>

10

<p>Let’s not forget that they have competitions in the med school each year on who has the greatest knowledge of the medical facts they’ve come across. If you don’t believe me, you should go to Oxford’s website and see. Although I might be getting Oxford, Cambridge, and Kings college mixed up. I believe I did my research some years past in high school and although I was exhilarated with the word ‘competition’ and ‘recognition’, I thought that in many ways the thought stuck to me uneasily.</p>