<p>Son went to an orientation for premed and apparently is having second thoughts about majoring in a bio or chem-engineering degree program. Supposedly, the GPA factor is huge and in his program it is doubtful that he will attain the near 4.0 requisite to get into med school. OTOH, he feels that if he majors in a softer liberal arts field (music, sociology, poli-sci, etc) he has a better chance at the GPA but is not interested in pursuing those fields if he is not successful getting into med school.</p>
<p>What to do, what to do.</p>
<p>My feeling is, do what you are interested in. If you end up with a 3.0-3.5 in chem-engineering and don't get into med school screw them, their loss. The curriculum is obviously a lot more demanding for chem engineering than general sciences, which allow for a lot of electives (meat we eat, basketweaving, etc). He is demoralized, I'm cynical, can anyone give us a sanity check???</p>
<p>It seems like, given the same standardized test scores, an admissions committee would take into consideration the degree program. I've asked around and from what I'm told that is not the case. It's strictly GPA- and the "odder" the undergraduate degree, that is for a doctor (i.e. "music major") the better. </p>
<p>What are your thoughts on pursuing an engineering degree and trying to get into med school??? Good or bad idea???</p>
<p>OK My next question is,
Does the major matter?
Is a 3.5 in Chem Engineering the same as a 3.5 (or a 3.7, 3.8, whatever) in Recreation and Leisure?</p>
<p>Music major is great pre-med major. Our local newpapers featured a top pediatrician, not sure her exact title was, but she said her undergraduate degree in music helps her develop her ear listenning to sound which helps with the stethoscope.</p>
<p>OK, let's not get into a discussion about music- I'm a musician, but for crying out loud, I am NOT a scientist/doctor/surgeon/whatever it takes to major in medicine.</p>
<p>My question is, will it hurt my son in the long run to major in chem or bio engineering (a notoriously difficult major) if he decides to go into med school, given that he ends up with a B vs. a A GPA?</p>
<p>I was not discussing musician. I was discussing music as a premed major, sorry you miss my point. The answer to your question is probably yes, they don't care what your undergraduate major is, the GPA/MCAT/interview/research/volunteer work. They do not give preference if one major is harder than another.</p>
<p>Mine just finished with a bio degree and starts med school in the fall. The MCAT matters and core studies, but a 4.0 wasn't necessary. In fact after he got in to med school he more or less mailed in the last semester. Had a shot at cum laude, but missed by .001. </p>
<p>Anyway as several doctors told him when he asked "what's the best med school?" The one that take you of course. You don't have to be perfect or candy stripe at a hospital. It's going to depend on who lets you interview and what type. He ended up accepted at the one that had the friendly 1v1 interview. Rejected by the school that did the spanish inquisition style. Others said no even though he was higher than their average so, it's a crapshoot. But at the end of it all he'll be a doc. I would just hope for an individual interview rather than the gang of 3, can you be more smug group interview.... yes U of WA, I'm talking about you guys. Geese, learn to smile and get off your high smug horses. Your there to interveiw potential students not play I'm more serious than you.</p>
<p>Opie,
You mention core studies. So does the rest matter? The fact that the "core studies" were but a small part of an otherwise intense program, rather than the most intense part of your curriculum....does that matter at all?</p>
<p>That's what my son is questioning. Whether to major in something easier than chem or bio engineering.</p>
<p>The music department at my alma mater has claimed for years that a higher percentage of its majors go on to grad school than those in the biology department, and it turns out to be true. </p>
<p>My stepnephew got into a reasonable east coast med school with just barely above a 3.5, and not fantastic MCATs either.</p>
<p>Majoring in engineering is generally a bad idea for the dedicated premed due to the gpa issue. However, some people really like engineering, and do better in their engineering courses than in the liberal arts courses, because engineering makes sense to them and poetry, for example, does not.</p>
<p>Did you mean biology or bioengineering? Lots of bio majors go into medicine. This requires much less quantitative training, and taken as a liberal arts program, there are usually far fewer required courses.</p>
<p>So... if he is really pretty sure about medical school, then I would advise him to consider other majors. Perhaps he will find that he is better suited to engineering than anything else. Just be careful, it is a difficult road to premed.</p>
<p>If on the other hand, he sees himself as an engineer, he should do that and not worry so much about grades. Engineers do not expect students to come out with super high gpa's.</p>
<p>Medical schools do not care what you major in, provided it is some respectable academic field. So the hypothetical fluff majors would be a problem. Vocational majors could have the same shortcoming. But physics is no better than philosophy.</p>
<p>And he does not need anything like a 4.0 to get into medical school. The people who gave the premed orientation should be able to give him a very good idea of what sort of gpa students from his college need to have a good shot at medical school, and how many students at his college get grades that high.</p>
<p>My husband is in academic medicine and I have met many med students, interns and residents over the years. it is true that statistically at least, a higher percentage of humanities majors (English, philosophy etc.) applying to med school are accepted than bio majors. This may be that so many more bio majors apply than humanities majors - only rarely do humanities majors also take the required pre-med reqs. so this is a self-selected group to begin with (am I making sense?). Med schools will also give some allowance for difficulty of college/major, maybe up to .2 GPA, so that a 3.4 gpa engineer might be viewed as equal to a 3.6 non-engineer from the same university. But that's about it - and ultimately GPA is probably the single most important data point for med school admission.</p>
<p>Another factor to keep in mind is that the attrition rate for pre-med is extremely high. At my S's college, of the 1100 or so students entering as pre-med 4 years ago, around 300 or so applied to med school. So your S should consider what he would like to do in the not-so-unlikely event that med school were no longer in the picture. If he likes engineering, then that's what he should study. It also doesn't hurt that the job market for engineering grads (especially Chem E) is so strong. By the way, I'm a little biased - my S is studying engineering and so far disavows any intent to apply to med school, to his father's chagrin. I'm also fairly certain that my son's GPA would actually be lower if he had majored in biology, chemistry, history, English, etc.</p>
<p>I served on a medical admissions committee previously. It is well known that engineering majors have lower GPAs overall as a rule than other majors and that is taken into consideration. The key for your son is to do well on his MCATs and on the common pre-med courses that all premeds take. If he has a high GPA in introductory bio, chemistry, physics, and in organic chemistry then he should be fine even if his GPA in engineering is somewhat lower. It doesn't matter whether you major in biology, music, or engineering, it is important to do well in the required pre-med courses. Given his predilction towards engineering, I would imagine he should be able to do just fine in those courses. I would advise him to follow what he is interested in. Usually students do best in what they like the most. It is possible he may fall in love with engineering and medicine may fall by the wayside. </p>
<p>As I look ahead at medicine, there will be a tremondous need for physicians with engineering backgrounds as powerful new imaging, drug delivery, and nano-technologies are emerging in research and clinical practice. Would your son consider majoring in bio-engineering and combine his twin interests?</p>
<p>Physician here. It was easiest to post as if I were giving advice to the student in question- here's my speech. Major in whatever you want to, take the required courses and do well in them, as well as the MCAT. Don't worry about what is needed for a job as a physician, you will get the training in medical school/residency. College is your chance to study something you like, even if you choose medicine as your profession. There are so many different personalities and interests among physicians (do you expect pediatricians/psychiatrists/surgeons... to be alike?). Also, majoring in what you are passionate about/like is useful if you change your mind or, like many, don't get in. I wish more students would choose a major they like, fit the required premed classes into their schedule and study hard to learn the material, not to get the gpa. But, then, not all physicians are intellectuals... and it doesn't take being a genius to comprehend the knowledge or learn the skills to be a good physician. The best way to go about it is to plan your schedule to meet reqs in the event you want to go to medical school, then put all of it in the back of your brain and concentrate on your undergraduate college life, doing all the things and taking all the courses you won't have time for after college, but want to explore. As you evolve you will either discover you don't care to try for medical school, you won't get in or you will be ready to go, and you will have no regrets regardless of your path. Physicians learn a lot about delayed gratification, but they also need to enjoy the present. If engineering strikes your fancy- go for it, without worrying about choosing the correct branch.</p>
<p>I agree with wis75's excellent points. College only comes along once. You should do what your are passionate and excited about. There will be exreme time constraints in medical school and training beyond. College is a time to learn as much as you can about as much you can as well as gain personal and intellectual maturity. I also endorse students to consider taking one or two years off from college, particularly if their GPAs/MCATs are in the borderline range for admission to medical school. It will give them an opportunity to work in the real world, re-evaluate their interest and commitment towards medicine against that experience, and could enhance their overall application package. Although there are some minimal thresholds for GPAs and MCATs, and there are large number of applicants to any individual medical school, I do not think the selection process is as number-driven as many applicants think. There is a strong attempt to evaluate candidates holistically even if it is somewhat subjective. In addition to the threshold GPAs/MCATs, medical schools seek candidates with strong commitment to medicine who have personal qualities that might predict they would be a good physician: leadership, perseverance, empathy,etc. As wis75 said, there are many different types of career options in medicine which require different skills and talents, so students from a wide range of backgrounds who have excellent credentials are sought. There is no prototype student they are looking for, although there are many "pre-med" prototype applicants who apply. Being yourself, and pursuing your own interests, rather than guessing what medical schools "want", and doing well in your chosen areas of endeavor, will make you stand out from the pack.</p>
<p>I would also add the same type of decision-making should enter into what area of medicine you want to go into. A lot of students choose certain specialties because they may be more lucrative, more "prestigious", less demanding time-wise, or foisted on by their parents who have invested heavily in their children's education. I suppose it is inevitable that some of these factors come into play. However, I would suggest doing what you enjoy and doing what excites you. You are likely to work 50-60 hours a week during your career, and you owe it to yourself (and your family) to do something that you feel is enjoyable and meaningful. I am in academic medicine and my specialty is not a particularly high paying one; however, I enjoy working with students and residents as well as doing medical research. I recently attended my medical school reunion, and there were some classmates who either no longer practiced medicine (wrong choice to begin with) and are not particularly happy with practicing medicine in the field they have chosen. It may sound trite, but given the delayed gratification and hard work to prepare for a medical career, and also to practice it, I recommend following your heart and do what you enjoy most.</p>
<p>He really is interested in science-related fields. Biology, or bioengineering. Older son is doing bioengineering. The challenge with the engineering is that you end up taking all the med school requirements in the first year or two of college. You can't spread them out, because they ARE the prerequisities for bioengineering. For example, oldest was just telling me yesterday that he's going to be done with the med requirements by next semester (his sophomore year- first semester). I don't know if that's the way it is with all students who major in something else.</p>
<p>Does a student take the MCATs when he's finished with his premed courses, or when he's finished with his undergraduate degree?</p>
<p>It's fairly standard to finish med school prereqs within 2-3 years.</p>
<p>I took bio/gen chem my freshman year and orgo/physics my sophomore year. I then took the MCAT the summer after my sophomore year and never had to worry about med school again until now (since I'm applying). He should take the MCAT as soon as possible after his premed courses, while the material is still fresh.</p>
<p>As for bio vs. bioengineering. Bioengineering is slightly tougher but should provide him with a better backup should he drop out of premed (which is highly likely considering the attrition rates). The job prospects for bio are not as good but theoretically his GPA should be a little higher with bio. Depends on how much he likes math, I guess.</p>
<p>I know nothing re med school admissions. But will comment on another aspect of this.</p>
<p>DS is an Engineering major in a tough curve, grade-deflation school. So his GPA is not what he's used to. He's keeping it above 3.2 (so far) but it is tough. It creates some stress and he's not even thinking about med school or grad school.</p>
<p>So I think your S (and you in helping him) might discuss how he might handle the pressure if he goes with the bioE or chemE and finds himself victim to those tough curve courses. </p>
<p>Do you think he could be excited about a career in bioE or chemE? Might change his mind and lose interest in the med school plan? Or, think of the bioE/chem E route as a great fallback if he doesn't get into med school? If so, if he wouldn't be greatly dejected if med school doesn't pan out, I think it would be great for him to major in those fields because they excite him. There is so much great stuff going on in medically-related bioE right now, for instance.</p>
<p>I guess I just think some forewarning and pre-thinking about handling the pressure of GPA worries is a good idea.</p>