<p>Has anyone taken physics before taking general chemistry and biology for premed? My son just met with his advisor this morning at Wash U and was advised to take physics before taking chemistry, which strikes me as being very peculiar since I have never seen anyone take Physics before taking general chemistry, organic chemistry, and biology. Granted I went to medical school in the 1990s, but I think things are still pretty much the same with the premed curriculum, and I'm concerned that by taking physics his freshman year, he's going to be delayed in his overall curriculum.</p>
<p>It seems to vary by college.</p>
<p>Physics is generally considered to be independent of both biology and chemistry and they only need one year to fulfill the premed requirements. OTOH, they need two years of chemistry and at least one year of Biology (I have seen texas schools stipulate 2 years) which means that irrespective of what the advisor says, at least Chemistry needs to be started now.</p>
<p>I was reviewing what UT suggests to premeds and they don’t even list physics until third year or so. However, Stanford BioE curriculum recommends starting Chemistry courses in 1st year while starting Biology in second year and completing physics during 1st year as required courses for the engineering major.</p>
<p>What is his major?</p>
<p>Lots of people take physics at the SAME time as gen chem (ie many engineers, because they have no other choice), but pushing off gen chem seems very silly.</p>
<p>For the record, if you push off gen chem until after physics, you can’t start Bio 1 until spring of your sophomore year. Now, if he’s not a bio/chem major, there’s not that much of an issue, but it is very strange.</p>
<p>Who was the advisor? That’s such weird advice. Not a single one of my pre-med (non-engineer) friends took physics before gen chem.</p>
<p>Johnson, I don’t know who his advisor was but I totally agree with you that this is very bizarre advice. I am also concerned about the fact that he won’t be able to take biology without taking chemistry first. I’m concerned about the fact that the MCAT is going to be changing in its format in a couple of years, and I don’t want him to be delayed by this bizarre advice. BTW, Does my son have to follow the advice of the advisor or can he still go ahead and register for classes on his own (ie Chemistry during his freshman year)?</p>
<p>Texas pg- He’s going to be majoring in classics</p>
<p>Edit- My son just got some information from the school that recommends that if students have not taken physics in high school, then they are recommended to physics during freshman year and that their overall sequence for premed will not be delayed by taking chemistry later. I still find this to be quite bizarre, as I don’t know anyone that ever took physics in their freshman year for a premed curriculum, unless the students were engineers.</p>
<p>If he follows the advisors advice, he’ll be looking at this schedule:</p>
<p>Freshman year: Physics 1 & 2
Sophomore year: Chem 1 & 2 (and lab), Bio 1
Junior year: Bio 2, Orgo 1 & 2</p>
<p>As a classics major, that’s actually not a bad schedule to follow. LOTS of people that wait a year to take WashU Gen Chem (ie Mechanical Engineers) significantly benefit from it. Taking chem as a sophomore means you’re already used to classes at washu, as compared to the dozens of freshmen that take it & fizzle & burn out in it. It is not uncommon for someone to drop the idea of pre-med because of how rigorous WashU’s Gen Chem is. </p>
<p>Another good thing to note: Physics 198 (physics 2) before Chem 111 (chem 1) would actually make chem 1 easier. This is because Chem 1 at WashU is essentially baby p-chem, and not the same as what other schools do. Chem 2 is more so all of AP chem in one semester.</p>
<p>Personally, had I been premed and not been a science major I would have taken gen chem & orgo elsewhere to avoid how tough they are here. But then again, had I been premed I would have gone to my state school and picked a major that would make it as easy as possible to get a 4.0… clearly I’ve never been premed though, so I can’t really speak to that.</p>
<p>But to answer your question, your son can go ahead and register for whatever he wants - once the advisor has approved registration, they really can’t stop him from enrolling in Gen Chem.</p>
<p>(I think they technically have the power to drop a student like that, but I’ve never heard of an advisor actually doing so. I’d imagine they’d get in quite a bit of trouble).</p>
<p>Tl;dr: it’s weird advice… but it’s not bad advice.</p>
<p>Thanks Johnson- the advisor recommended Physics 117. My son is going to check with the Chemistry Dept If he can take Chem 111- he’s been studying for the placement test this summer.</p>
<p>"It is not uncommon for someone to drop the idea of pre-med because of how rigorous WashU’s Gen Chem is. "</p>
<p>As psychodad the physician’s son, there is not much chance of this happening. :p</p>
<p>Thanks Johnson- the advisor recommended Physics 117. My son is going to check with the Chemistry Dept If he can take Chem 111- he’s been studying for the placement test this summer.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t bother studying for the chem placement exam. It will only determine if you need extra help, most likely due to poor math and science skills. Chem 111A is quantum chemistry, nothing like you’ve ever seen before, so just take the placement exam and make it as genuine as possible.</p>
<p>Texaspg- As a physician, I actually did not encourage my son to go into medicine. I don’t see a very promising future, but if this is what he wants to do them I’m trying to make sure he has as smooth a path as can be expected.</p>
<p>Psychodad - That is a good thing. I see many physicians preferring their children to do medicine and there many who seem to be third or fourth generation budding physicians, even on CC. As long as he is choosing to be one, it is no longer a problem. I also notice that many are more driven to succeed as physician’s kids in whatever they choose.</p>
<p>I went scavenger hunting and this is what I could find as advice at WUSTL.</p>
<p><a href=“http://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/HANDBOOK.pdf[/url]”>http://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/HANDBOOK.pdf</a></p>
<p>They don’t seem to be picky about a schedule.</p>
<p>My suggestion would be the following:</p>
<p>Get a schedule of what the classics major requirements are and when they expect to do which classes.</p>
<p>Add classes needed for premed into that schedule with the specific goal of covering what is needed for MCAT by the time MCAT needs to be done. Normally, anyone wanting to start medicine right after 4 years, should take it between end of second year and spring of third year.</p>
<p>So if you can fit in everything needed in that time frame, it really wont matter when you take any of the subjects.</p>
<p>The only strong opinion I have on all of this is that if he does take physics, DO NOT TAKE 117! I can’t believe that there are advisors still suggesting that people take that class. For the record, even the physics department has been working on phasing it out. Seriously. It’s an awful class, and very impersonal. 197 all the way. (It counts exactly the same as 117).</p>
<p>(Also I agree - don’t bother studying for the chem placement. Doing poorly on it simply means that he’ll get a better recitation TA/Prof).</p>
<p>Johnson- he hasn’t had physics in HS (was in IB curriculum and chose Biology as his science )- advisor apparently told him that Physics 197 is for engineers. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>The two classes essentially cover the exact same material, but 197 is taught better (and also goes more into relativity, which is neat). Additionally, the grading in 197 is far better than 117’s - 45% of your 197 grade is based on homework, as opposed to something like 10% in 117. In other words, exams count for less in 197 (which is good unless you’re lazy and don’t do your homework…).</p>
<p>197 is not “for engineers” - the advisor is working on a dated view of the physics classes, one that is largely inaccurate. There are now 5 sections of 197 and 1 section of 117. Last year, ~150 students took 117, and the 197 sections were capped ~120 (so 600 students vs. 150).</p>
<p>Also, for what it’s worth, I barely had physics in high school. What I took had no business baring that label - it was a complete joke. In the beginning he may be a bit behind compared to his peers, but that would be true for 117 or 197. I would also argue that the support system is stronger in 197 than 117 as well, so it has that plus.</p>
<p>I should note though that the waitlist process for 197 is weird. He should be able to get into one of the five sections, but getting into Bernatowicz (the best by far) may be a challenge.</p>
<p>I don’t know how priority is given on the waitlist, but if, for whatever reason, he can’t get in, I’d strongly advise against just taking 117.</p>
<p>Tl;dr: any advisor who suggests 117 over 197 doesn’t know what they’re talking about - that’s outdated from before even I was a freshman back in Fall '08. Doesn’t mean they’re not a good advisor in general though.</p>
<p>Agreed ^</p>
<p>I waited until junior year to take 197, and obviously got my teacher of choice. I honestly don’t think that physics before chem is at all necessary. I can’t believe that any washu advisor is actually saying this stuff…</p>
<p>197 is by far the better choice. And for what it’s worth, your son may find intro physics to be difficult regardless of whether he takes 117 or 197. It can be a hard class if you don’t have a strong background in math and especially if you have never taken a physics class before. Relativity, thermodynamics, electro-magnetism, lots of calculus and possibly even some differential equations if I remember correctly…the point is, it’s not all basic stuff. But I definitely think 197 gives you a better chance of doing well because you are constantly being guided by the homework, which counts for a large part of your final grade.</p>
<p>Back when I was a freshman, my friends in 117 would gather around the night before their homework sets were due and hastily collaborate to get the bare minimum down on paper. They may have done OK on the assignments if they weren’t graded very stringently, but that’s beside the point. In 197, you’ll realize very quickly that if you want to do well, you cannot afford not to do the homework. If you put forth the effort, you will do well on the homework sets and you will do well on the exams as a result.</p>
<p>D went to a high school where the programming included Physics during freshman year (called “Physics First”). She is in a 7-week program at WUSTL this summer and has Chem Prep Seminars two nights a week. She describes it as a “mash-up” of Physics and Chemistry. She is comfortable with Chemestry but hasn’t had any Physics since freshman HS so she feels a little lost. Maybe that is why the advisor is recommending Physics first.</p>
<p>I took Physics before Chemistry, and I am premed. I came in thinking I would take Chem freshman year like most other premeds, and felt that my advisor was crazy when he suggested otherwise. By far the best advice he has given me. While it is not necessary, Physics definitely helped my understanding of what was taught in Chem. I could see it just made sense to do it that way. I had/have no intention of being a bio or chem major, and anyway I feel that some people rush the premed sequence. For me, it flows so much better if you take physics before chem, although I realize that many people do not have that option as chem or bio majors. I’d be happy to answer any questions. I also did the same program as Kennedy2010’s daughter before my freshman year.</p>
<p>PS, I am not an engineer, although I may now in fact be considering a major in Physics.</p>
<p>What makes gen chem 1 so difficult? Do the extended recitation and PLTL significantly help?</p>
<p>Chem 1 goes into the quantum physics explanation for electron orbitals among other things. As most people haven’t had any experience regard that, the class can become a bit conceptual/mathy.</p>
<p>Edit: PLTL is a very good resource - I’d definitely suggest signing up for it. Worst case scenario, you understand everything the first time it is taught, and PLTL is simply extra review.</p>