Prep School College Advocacy?

Prep School Admissions Prep School Parents
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<p>@JMilton - Legacy status gives no positive advantage at husband’s university. Same is true for MIT. I think the climate has changed at many schools due to increased visibility among viable candidates via social media, internet, marketing - although I suspect not advertised even to alum. </p>

<p>And since I’m a “parent” I can say we’re on the same page about parent support. However - just a caution, some step well over the line and become a detriment. “known” ones child is not the same as “objective” I think BS counselors, in concert with advisors, staff and teachers, can do a pretty good job of assessing a child’s strengths and weaknesses absent of parental influences. That counts for a lot - which is why colleges ask for those assessments, not a parent’s. Helping to steer is great. Knowing how to keep personal preferences out of the decision is the challenge. IMHO - those assessments need to happen long before the student is filling out an application or working with a counselor.</p>

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<p>Hades2- They recommended two ‘strong’ SAT II’s.</p>

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<p>For those who lurk and may be interested in what the prep schools themselves have to say about the college admissions process, I thought I’d share Choate’s philosophy from the current college counseling handbook as it addresses some of the issues brought up in this thread. Perhaps other parents with students at other schools can supplement with any information or approaches from their kids’ schools that may differ.</p>

<p>Core Beliefs—Working in partnership with families and other members of the Choate community:</p>

<p>• We recognize each student as a unique individual, living in a complex time and in a highly competitive academic and social environment.</p>

<p>• We support Choate students as they identify and clarify their personal attributes and align these qualities with their post-secondary options by helping them to find an appropriate college fit and/or interim year opportunity.</p>

<p>• We assist Choate students with the tools of research, problem-solving, writing, critical thinking and evaluation. As students develop the necessary skills to take responsibility for their own decisions, they understand how to make important decisions affecting their lives beyond the college admission process.</p>

<p>• We are student-centered confidence builders, supporting each student’s sense of dignity and self-worth throughout the college process, always reminding our students and families that one’s value as a person is neither enhanced nor diminished by any college admission decision.</p>

<p>Counselee Expectations—Students expect the following from their college counselor:</p>

<p>• Expert guidance and support throughout the college admission process by an experienced, professional college counselor who provides timely, individualized attention.</p>

<p>• Assistance in developing a thoughtful and balanced application list of colleges.</p>

<p>• Clearly identified tasks and deadlines for students and parents/guardians.</p>

<p>• Frequent and meaningful communication throughout the post-secondary selection and application process.</p>

<p>• An open door and a willingness to listen to all questions, ideas, frustrations, fears, disappointments, and successes.</p>

<p>College Counselor Expectations—College counselors expect the following from their counselees:</p>

<p>• Timely attention to all tasks and deadlines throughout the college admission cycle.</p>

<p>• Honest and open communication. Listen with an open mind. Assert yourself and ask questions.</p>

<p>• Thoughtful consideration of your college counselor’s recommendations when it comes to applying to a particular college or university.</p>

<p>• A willingness by parents and guardians to assist you in owning the college admission process by helping you become self-sufficient and self-reliant.</p>

<p>Parent/Guardian Support—Students and their college counselors expect the following support and guidance from parents and guardians:</p>

<p>• Respect your child’s choices. Listen with an open mind.</p>

<p>• Provide helpful, encouraging, and constructive feedback.</p>

<p>• Model appropriate behavior. Children learn by what they observe.</p>

<p>• Encourage your child to communicate with colleges directly; try not to take over the process or the responsibilities that more appropriately belong to the applicant.</p>

<p>• Remember that college counselors are professionals—each individual is a valuable resource whose experience gives them unique
knowledge and insight within the field of college admission.</p>

<p>• If you are perplexed by a counselor’s recommendation or suggestion, please ask him/her for clarification.</p>

<p>• Do not assume that online blogs or social networking sites have accurate college admission information.</p>

<p>(Surely that last bullet doesn’t include CC? :wink: )</p>

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<p>A bit more:</p>

<p>COUNSELOR’S ROLE
The individuals in the CCO are professionals dedicated to helping students achieve their dreams of a college education. In addition to keeping abreast of the latest trends and best practices in college admission and cultivating relationships with admission offices and officers, counselors take seriously their primary roles: to counsel, educate, and support—as well as advocate for— Choate students to the best of their ability.</p>

<p>COLLEGE LIST
While it is no secret that college and university admission is the most competitive in recent history, a realistic and well-balanced list is absolutely attainable, ensuring student success. Using the most up-to-date tools and data possible, the CCO counsels students realistically, balancing the desire to reach for the most selective schools on their lists while introducing students to comparable schools that can potentially provide “insurance” as well as a quality education. Fortunately, although selectivity at the top schools in the nation is the most competitive ever, there are thousands of excellent colleges and universities.</p>

<p>COLLABORATION
A critical piece of the puzzle is communication between the student and the counselor, between the parent/guardian and the student, and between the parent/guardian and the counselor. These partnerships create the foundation for the successful participation in and completion of the admission process. Open lines of communication are essential, and the CCO welcomes input from families.</p>

<p>ADMISSION FACTORS
Choate Rosemary Hall provides its students with extraordinary opportunities in a multitude of venues. Every student is encouraged to take full advantage of the academic, social, artistic, community and athletic offerings that best fit his or her personality. In essence, the college process is a holistic one; a college or university must feel certain that a student they choose to invite into their community will be able and willing to contribute in positive ways. While the ways in which students contribute vary greatly in the eyes of a college admission office, a student’s record of academic performance and good citizenship at Choate will factor into the formula most heavily.</p>

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<p>“COUNSELOR’S ROLE
… counselors take seriously their primary roles: to counsel, educate, and support—as well as advocate for— Choate students to the best of their ability.”</p>

<p>Given the no call rule we have discussed on this thread, should Choate clarify that counselor “advocacy” does not include calling colleges on behalf of individual students?</p>

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<p>Why should a boarding school have to clarify that?</p>

<p>If the student isn’t properly prepped, ready or qualified by the time the application goes in the mail (or through Common App) perhaps the PARENT should make the call and explain to the college that they bought a “get into the college of my child’s choice” guarantee with their tuition and would now like to exercise that option. Adcoms could use a good laugh and would welcome an opportunity to move another app to the “no” pile so they can get the list down to a manageable size.</p>

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<p>Exie,</p>

<p>Why wouldn’t a reputable school such as Choate want to clarify that most select colleges no longer accept advocacy calls from high school college counselors? Andover has done so. Shouldn’t other prep schools follow suit? Certainly, you are not suggesting that it is appropriate for some prep schools to imply one thing (effective advocacy) yet do another (not make calls on behalf of students)? </p>

<p>The remainder of your comment makes a straw man argument to rebut a position I do not take. The fact that most selective colleges do not accept advocacy calls moots the issue of whether prep schools should make these calls. Hence, the question is not whether a prep school college counselor should make an advocacy call on behalf of an individual student. It is whether a prep school that touts personal advocacy should be forthcoming about the limits of that advocacy when it knows, or should know, that many parents are not aware of this no call rule. </p>

<p>I am not suggesting that college matriculation should be the primary factor in choosing a prep school. But I do think it’s naive to ignore how prep schools commoditize college admission and then sell it as a product to parents regardless of their wealth. In fact, Choate tells parents, “The individuals in the CCO are professionals dedicated to helping students achieve their dreams of a college education.” As prep schools market the “dream” of college matriculation, parents have a right to make an informed decision about this factor before their children matriculate to prep school. </p>

<p>Instead, some prep schools engage in what might be described as a bait and switch tactic. They understand that college matriculation is more important to parents than it should be. Indeed, they realize that many parents unrealistically “dream” that prep school will be a springboard for their child to attend an Ivy or Stanford. So, some prep schools tout their ability to make this “dream” a reality by featuring college matriculation statistics in their view books or marketing the advocacy role of their CCO. Then, when the college counseling process begins in earnest, they admonish parents to discard the college dreams they manipulated and helped to create. </p>

<p>As adjusting the college expectations of prep school parents’ college to reality is a good thing, shouldn’t prep schools be transparent about both the benefits and the limitations of their college advocacy from the inception? Don’t they owe parents full disclosure about what they can and can’t do in the college admission process? That certainly would make life easier for their college counselors. It would also importantly educate parents.</p>

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<p>Jmilton, in my opinion, as a parent, I would hope a school would call if a student ended up with nowhere to go in April. (I don’t know what happens at my children’s schools, because I haven’t asked the question.)</p>

<p>I don’t think calling after an early action deferral is warranted, nor wise. A deferral is not a rejection. We don’t know how realistic a choice the college was for your friend’s child. We also don’t know how “hot” that college was at that school. A college which has a few kids enroll from that school each year might receive many more early action applications. So, (making up examples here), one student might matriculate at Likely U, but twenty students might have applied early action. </p>

<p>As to the “no call” rule, well, obviously my kids aren’t enrolled at that school, because I haven’t heard of it. I can well imagine that it might be a sensible rule if a large number of parents at that particular school expect college counselors to be able to “make a call” when the parents don’t like admissions results. (Is your friend near New York City? :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Are you certain of this? Perhaps I wasn’t paying attention when my kids were applying. Many schools make lists of their students’ college matriculation available, because parents will look for the data. As far as I remember, though, the prep schools are careful not to make any promises. The one thing they might be doing is not making clear to parents of 8th graders how many prep school seniors are “hooked.” On the other hand, having read many threads debating the effect of hooks on this site, many parents of applicants who care about college matriculation seem to resist that particular message.</p>

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<p>Periwinkle,</p>

<p>You are absolutely right. Many parents have not heard of the “no call rule” most selective colleges now apparently enforce. I was unaware of it before I read the interview from the Andover director of college counseling cited in one of my earlier posts. According to that interview, colleges no longer accept advocacy calls from any high school counselor because they are too inundated with ever increasing numbers of applications. </p>

<p>Prep schools do not make explicit promises about college matriculation. But I do think they sell the competency of their college counseling as well as the excellence of their college matriculation. Most prep schools are deservedly proud of their CCO and college matriculation stats. I would just like them to follow Andover’s lead and become more transparent about the no call rule precisely because many parents don’t know about it.</p>

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<p>The competency of a college advisor has nothing to do with picking up a phone. it does come to play in helping students set reasonable goals given qualitative and quantitative data. I do know that my D’s school began the “process” the moment she set foot on campus - which included requesting that as a sophomore she attend the college fair (150 colleges) and talk to the reps. That let her target her choices early enough in the process to begin thinking about how her class and activity choices would factor into her applications - and also which schools felt like a “fit” to her based on her interests and theirs.</p>

<p>Still - those “stats” as we’ve cautioned, don’t tell the whole story. Five students entered Harvard? Was one a Siemen’s finalist, two are legacies, one was a star jock, the other came from a midwest farm in Nebraska and played a Tuba filling a hole in the orchestra.</p>

<p>Or - 4 were international students with perfect scores and full pays and the 5th is a kid whose last name was on a building?</p>

<p>Or…5 were ordinary students with some extraordinary thing on their resume that went well beyond the standard academic resume.</p>

<p>Or – some were students who connected with the staff during the interviews (admissions is part subjective) while the well qualified student that got rejected was the one who showed up to his/her interview late and with an entitlement issue. (For instance the Exeter student who was 2 hours late for the interview and apologized because he remembered he promised to play Squash with a dormmate).</p>

<p>The point is - the student is in more control than the school at this point. The College isn’t admitting the “school” they’re admitting a student and parents (as much as they think they know their kid) have a soft, often emotional, blind spot and aren’t always the best judge. Certainly they may be accurate in their assessment that their student is a great catch, but have no visibility to the other 10,0000 to 50,000 other “great kids” vying for so few spots.</p>

<p>Prep schools don’t make any type of promise (even implicitly) that a school will pick up a phone and call a school about a child. I DO think it is appropriate, if it is clear that a student has no choices, that CC’s identify schools that still have openings (similar to what Med schools do for students who don’t “match” to a program). But how often does that really happen?</p>

<p>What I suspect the conflict is that there are some parents that believe their tuition guarantees them a specific outcome. Unfortunately, it doesn’t. Which is why some of us suggest - going to Prep school for the educational opportunities and the mind blowing life experience. Not because they school has magic powers to get the kid into a specific school. That’s why - on another thread - I posted a recent article about how high those college application numbers are. Schools have their “pick of the litter.” The job of the student, school and parent is to get the student as well prepped as possible so they have a fighting chance. Still - no matter what you do - it is possible for a well-qualified student to become a finalist and not get the desired choice. It isn’t a reflection on the student or the school. Just too many well qualified students - and more often than not - with similar attributes.</p>

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<p>I have found this thread very interesting and appreciate all of your input. We came into the prep school app process without expectation of “guarantee” for college placement, but we were under the impression that counselors at many high schools, both public and private, do sometimes pick up the phone to advocate for students. I was also under the impression that private schools would do a lot more of that, simply because they so much are better staffed. I had no thoughts about the timing of this type of intervention, and would not have automatically assumed it’s not done after an ED deferral.</p>

<p>FWIW, I am one who interprets a statement that counselors “advocate” for students to mean that they indeed contact college AO’s and argue in favor of the student, and feel it is misleading for them to say they “advocate” if, as a rule, they do not pick up the phone. </p>

<p>Just out of curiosity, I checked the college counseling page for all the prep schools to which my child is applying, and found that not one of them promises that CC’s “advocate” for students. One actually says that they teach students “to self-advocate” in the college application process. This is great in my view, as I think it is more important for kids to learn this skill than to learn that people can be paid to do it for them.</p>

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<p>Without knowing the school the OP was talking about, its really hard to criticize a school’s response or lack of action. Some schools wait list a huge percentage of their early apps. Here’s the stats on Princeton for this application cycle:
“This year’s total includes 3,810 applicants who applied last fall for early action admission. Of these early applicants, 679 were offered a spot in the Class of 2017 in December. Of the remaining early applicants, 2,777 were deferred to the regular admission applicant pool. The number of early applications increased by 10.7 percent this year, up from 3,443 who applied early for the Class of 2016.”</p>

<p>So, for those not accepted SCEA, over 88% were waitlisted. If 15 students from one boarding school applied SCEA to Princeton, it’s totally possible that 10 could get waitlisted. Is the college admissions office supposed to make 10 individual calls to advocate for each student? Not likely nor would it be productive. </p>

<p>I do know that prep school college advisors will beat down the doors of the college advisors in the rare instance a student doesn’t get into any schools in the Spring. Heard second hand about that happening about 5 years ago. I also know they will often place personal calls prior to acceptance deadlines for schools where less students apply or after being waitlisted in the Spring. I think calling after a early decision waitlist is too much to expect. I am sure they will help guide the student on ways to strengthen their application in terms of advocation for themselves.</p>

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<p>Im coming back into the fray. – "What I suspect the conflict is that there are some parents that believe their tuition guarantees them a specific outcome. Unfortunately, it doesn’t. " – I dont believe that anyone in this thread, or anyone in the Parents Forum believes this. I do believe that parents have a complete right to expect that if a student, and family, who listened to the school and a college counsellor and applied to a good mix of colleges that were recommended for that student (and yes there are private schools out there that make you sign a contract that you will only apply to the schools that you name, and they will not forward any material from the school , ie transcripts, recs, to the schools that were not agreed upon in advance), did not get in to any but the throwaway “safety” or is only waitlisted everywhere, deserves personal intervention in the face of the GC. And guess what? They do it all the time. Obviously not to the “lottery schools”, but to everywhere else. They tap into adcom connection, Board connections, Alum/donor connection. And they get those students in.
In terms of what the GCs do best - its manage the expectations of the students and the families. They have to place the entire class. So if you had your heart set on Vandy, but got into Gtown, because of myriad reasons, the GCs are extremely happy. You may not be but to them it’s a job well done. And frankly at the end of the four years, you wont remember that you’re in your second choice. In terms of the above example of 15 students applying to Pton SCEA – no way no how would that many allowed to apply. Some would be steered elsewhere. Even in a school with 300 graduating seniors - only 30 are top ten%. They will be spread between the ivys, Stanford, MIT Duke and the top 5 LACs, as well as a Service Academy or two, and perhaps a Conservatory, so that alters the numbers tremendously. They will steer the non ten% away from those schools, because that is the realistic thing to do, unless the kids are truly top notch athletes or major development cases.</p>

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<p>mhmm - I know of 7,8,9 students at SPS applying early to certain Ivy or Ivy like schools, so i would assume schools that are larger - Exeter, Andover? - could reach a number of 15. Just among my child’s small close-knit friend group at SPS, 3 applied early to the same school, and they were by far not the only early applications. Even if it was only 8, that would still be 6 kids to advocate for which is too many. And many of these kids applying are not top 10% academically but have other hooks which make them compelling candidates. Early apps are getting very popular and I don’t see how a school can tell you NOT to apply to your dream school. That is what the early process is for. I’ve heard Exeter is more restrictive in its college application procedures but this doesn’t apply to all boarding schools. </p>

<p>I agree with your assessments, however.</p>

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<p>I think most people are more or less in agreement here, yet the argument continues on. To clarify my last post, I was responding to the issue debated in the recent posts of whether it is misleading for a prep school to state that they “advocate” for students if, as a rule, they do not contact college AO’s and argue in favor of the student. I wasn’t suggesting that “advocate” means a guarantee for a call on behalf of the student whenever parents and student want, to which ever college parents and students want.</p>

<p>For example on Groton’s college counseling page, it says:
“As completed applications are being reviewed, Groton’s college counselors engage in regular discussion with the representatives in the college admission offices.”
[Groton</a> School ~ College Counseling](<a href=“http://www.groton.org/academic/college_counseling/overview]Groton”>http://www.groton.org/academic/college_counseling/overview)
With that clearly stated, I would have an expectation that the CC would call on behalf of my ED deferred child. I would not feel entitled to a guarantee, but I believe a reasonable person would expect the phone call, and might feel misled if none was forthcoming.</p>

<p>Concord Academy, on the other hand, says this:
“Students meet regularly with an assigned counselor to identify strengths and interests, to learn to self-advocate…”
…And nowhere (that I could find) does it say that Concord CC’s contact college AO’s
[Concord</a> Academy: College Counseling](<a href=“http://www.concordacademy.org/academics/college-counseling/index.aspx]Concord”>http://www.concordacademy.org/academics/college-counseling/index.aspx)
There is no implication that they make these calls, so I don’t believe a reasonable person would feel misled if calls are not made.</p>

<p>So I agree with jmilton: if CC’s do not, as a rule, call college AO’s on behalf of students, they should not imply that they do. If they do imply it, then some parents will understandably feel misled and disappointed, even if they never entertained the notion that prep school tuition guarantees placement at a particular tier of college.</p>

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<p>I think schools differ in how closely the CCO’s work with college AOs throughout the process, which is something hard to quantify in itself. Furthermore, a school may have a closer relationship with some colleges than with others and they change over time due to various factors. To some schools, “advocate” means CCO will stand behind you and provide the positive input consistently when in contact with colleges. They may feel that through recommendations and their discussions with AO’s they have done their share of “advocating”. If after the interactions that have already happened by the decision time, there’s really not much they could do. However, while some outcomes may surprise the CCO’s, they generally have a good idea where (may not be exactly which college but what group or tier of college) a student may end up with. And when it is one of those rare true surprises, it’s much easier to make a case and ask the CCO to call and further “advacate” the student. If the CCO already knows a student will not make it to a certain college before the decision time, based on their evaluation of the strength of school’s applicant pool to that college and the discussions that have happened between them and colleges (which in many cases are confidential), how can you expect them to pick up the phone and call after the decision is out?</p>

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<p>If most selective colleges do not accept advocacy calls, parents should not ask high school college counselors to initiate those calls. However, parents should expect prep schools to be forthcoming about what their counselors can and can’t do regarding personal advocacy. </p>

<p>We all know that counselors can advocate for students by writing recommendations or responding to calls from college admission officers. But if counselors can no longer make advocacy calls, prep schools should be candid about that as well.</p>

<p>Prep schools don’t need to write a manifesto. They simply need to say that most selective colleges are now too inundated with college applications to accept personal advocacy calls. Some parents will accept this limitation. Others will be upset by it. But, all should know about it.</p>

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<p>^^That’s because those calls do still happen, just not for everyone in every case! I also think it’s unfair to imply that the schools are trying to mislead families by purposefully making them believe that they will make personal advocacy calls for their kids at their request. It’s not the way how the process works. Particularly when it’s a time when “most selective colleges are now too inundated with college applications”, it’s unrealistic to expect CCO to call for every deferred/WL’ed student. These calls could happen on a case by case basis though.</p>

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<p>@Honoraryamom, college representatives visit schools in the fall. At that time, the college counseling department has a chance to connect with the reps who will most likely be reading their students’ applications. I would hope that the students most interested in certain colleges would be able to make time in their schedules to meet with the reps when they’re on campus. </p>

<p>I think the colleges may call schools with questions. However, I would not read Groton’s description of “conversations” with reps as a process whereby Groton calls any university at any time. I know the boarding schools send very detailed letters of recommendation to colleges, because they know the students well, in several contexts. This is a huge advantage.</p>

<p>@jmilton, families that receive good news this weekend can follow up at revisits on the topic of college counseling. Perhaps different people interpret “advocate” differently? I just think of advocacy calls, as you outlined in your OP, as an emergency measure which parents of 8th graders aren’t prepared to contemplate.</p>

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<p>No one thinks that a CC would be willing to call any university at any time. Different people will interpret “advocacy” differently, and I’m just one person, but my guess is that reasonable people might expect the call to be made for an ED deferral if prep school says they advocate and/or are in “regular” contact with college AO’s. I suspect many parents would consider that an “emergency” when it’s their own kid.</p>