<p>Here's a rhetorical question to ponder-
If you were to walk into your son or daughter's room and find a bookcase full of porn magazines, books, videos- I'm talking S&M, bondage, fetish, etc.- pictures of, say, naked men with sparklers in their butts- and your child said, "Hey mom, it's my art collection"... wouldn't there be just a little question in your mind? Would it really be just the same thing as if he had a collection of, say, Schoenberg? (I'm using that as an example, because I don't particularly care for whole tone music) Wouldn't there be at least a little bit of skepticism?</p>
<p>Because if you read the bios of the people in that show- that's exactly the type of material they produce, and the type of performances they are doing. Only it's wrapped up in the package of a university setting and billed as art.</p>
<p>Application growth- .9% compared to 8% average for the state. 1% the year before. Basically level compared to record levels for most of the nation's other universities. We are in a boom right now.</p>
<p>The sex show was not the one and only incident that caused this man's firing. Look at the objective numbers- universities depend on capital and applicants. Donors were pulling out. Not only that, but his was the first administration to NOT release fundraising information at that very crucial time (last spring) when all hell was breaking lose. He refused to dialog with important alumni backers/donors, and basically lied about knowing that a $12 million dollar pledge was rescinded.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would it really be just the same thing as if he had a collection of, say, Schoenberg?
[/quote]
Hey, I hate Schoenberg, too! :) But when my public radio station plays him, I pop in a CD instead.
I suppose I'm saying, doubleday, that I don't want someone else deciding what art is for me. And I'm not willing to decide what art is for other people.</p>
<p>Oh doubleplay, I almost feel sorry for you. What an absurd analogy this is. Can you not make a distinction between a parent's responsibility in guiding the morality of a minor child and an adult citizen's freedom of expression? </p>
<p>I know how badly you want to "win" this argument, but this isn't helping your case.</p>
<p>[[[[Here's a rhetorical question to ponder-
If you were to walk into your son or daughter's room and find a bookcase full of porn magazines, books, videos- I'm talking S&M, bondage, fetish, etc.- pictures of, say, naked men with sparklers in their butts- and your child said, "Hey mom, it's my art collection"... wouldn't there be just a little question in your mind? Would it really be just the same thing as if he had a collection of, say, Schoenberg? (I'm using that as an example, because I don't particularly care for whole tone music) Wouldn't there be at least a little bit of skepticism?]]]]</p>
<p>swish14,
I don't know how familiar you are with W&M, but I urge you to not so quickly place the school and the BOV in the same group with the far right. IMO, such statements only further inflame and distort a lot of the truth of what is probably going down in Williamsburg. Nichol and the press are playing up these censorship issues and this undoubtedly has infuriated some of the alumni, but I think that the reasons for his dismissal go well beyond and relate more to style than specific actions. </p>
<p>I think it is crucial to understand how prominently money may have affected this situation. I know folks like to remain pure in the academic (and any) realm, but these schools need money and their primary source is their alumni base. State funding has been declining for years at Virginia's public universities (as they have at virtually all state universities across the country) and W&M's endowment is much, much too small. This is a major difference with U Virginia which has grown its endowment aggressively and raised huge amounts of money. </p>
<p>In the latest NACUBO report for endowment funds as of 6/30/07, the comparison was:</p>
<p>U Virginia: Total Endowment of $4.37 billion, or $180,163 per capita</p>
<p>W&M: Total Endowment of $586 million, or $82,591 per capita</p>
<p>Granted, U Virginia is much more of a research institution and requires greater capital, but the differences are stark and I would bet that making up some of that difference was an important expectation for any President of W&M.</p>
<p>Actions taken by the Va Regents will decide whether schools like W & M, UVa, or any other public institution will grow in National prestige and respectability or remain primarily a State institution.
My kid was accepted to W & M a few years ago. She did give it serious consideration and could have enrolled at the school as it did have alot to offer.
But if her acceptance letter had come this March/April, I do not think it would have gotten any consideration from this NY family.
The actions of the Va Board, may play well in Virginia and with some alumni- but may not play as well in other parts of the country.</p>
<p>This may give some (I'll stereotype) NE liberal families something to think about before we send our kids to Public Universities in more conservative areas of the country.</p>
<p>And this affects Graduate and Law Schools too. I became aware of the controversy through the Law School Discussion website. Potential W and M Law school students are discussing the ramifications of this action and how it may affect attracting law school professors to W & M. </p>
<p>And you are shifting the meaning of my post. I was responding to the assertion that these performances are art. </p>
<p>Those performers have been expressing themselves, and making a nice living at it. I have not said anything on this thread about limiting their freedom of expression. They can perform anywhere anyone wants them to. And people also have the right to decide whether or not they want to send their dollars to W&M.</p>
<p>The people hurt here are the students of W&M, as I see it. Alumni and capital contributors pull out- no money- limited resources- drop in rankings- larger class sizes- on and on.</p>
<p>People want their cake and to eat it too. Tick the deep pocket donors off, but then expect them to continue feeding the gravy train? Doesn't work that way. And when the gravy train dries up, say goodbye to the chief.</p>
<p>And I am proud to say that I don't consider butt sparklers or oral sex on dildi to be art forms.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Marshall said that because the university is public property, sexually explicit material should not be allowed on campus. But that’s precisely why the show is allowed. Oddly, the college is exempt from the state obscenity statute because it is an institution of higher learning. </p>
<p>Nate Green, commonwealth attorney for Williamsburg-James City, said that if the show were held off campus there would be an investigation to determine if it was obscene. W&M students looked at off-campus sites for the show, including the Unitarian Universalist Church on Ironbound Road, but they feared running afoul of James City’s public nudity ordinance.
<p>Obviously, there was a personality clash here, which often happens when you have an entire university beholden to one or two trustees or to one benefactor with big pockets. </p>
<p>People cite the Wesleyan pornography course as an instance of liberalism at its worse, but, they forget that it was only because the president of the university unilaterally took it upon himself to ban the course, that the public at-large learned anything about it in the first place. Seems as if Northern liberals are damned if they do and damned if they don't. </p>
<p>I'm of two minds, here: OTOH, it is hard for me to imagine that a board of governors anywhere else would have stepped in to overrule a sitting president for refraining to act <em>in loco parentis</em> in a situation lacking any clear and present danger to the students themselves. OTOH, I'm sure the Duke lacrosse team thought that was exactly the situation they were in: merely exercising their First Amendment rights. I guess, it depends on the track record of the students themselves, in governing themselves. From reading what doubleplay and stickershock have had to say, W&M students had a good one.</p>
<p>I am not familiar with the specifics of W&M, but have been around academia long enough to know that Nichol wasnt fired over this one event; this is a far more complicated affair than simply some morality play pitting right-wing zealots against a defender of the Constitution. Lots and lots of presidents of lots and lots of colleges in lots and lots of states (even in NE, I suspect) have faced similar situations. Universities, especially public ones, are lightning rods for any state legislator looking for an opportunity to make political hay. The presidents were usually able to survive because they had the skill (or good sense) to build coalitions among the schools supporters, who respected the job they were doing and rallied to their support when these controversies arose. Nichol seems to have singularly failed to do this. I havent read through the entire thread, but Id be interested in knowing what the response was by the faculty and students at W&M to all this. </p>
<p>Now, if he had gone out and hired himself a basketball coach that beat UVa and won the NCAA championship, this would have been a non-event. :)</p>
<p>^JustaGuy, some students and faculty have gone on strike, for more information I would suggest looking at the thread in the W&M board where some students including myself have been discussing the issue.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Pretty sweet racket ol' Annie Oakley has going for her.
[/quote]
You got that right. She no doubt has contempt for the students & administrators she has conned with this ART performance/dialogue hokum. As all con artists have contempt for their victims. But hey, their money is green.</p>
<p>I haven't used the word rectum this much in my life, and that includes during nursing school. At least I did learn something today: The plural of dildo. My Latin is a bit rusty. The plural of rectum = recti?</p>
<p>I've said more on this thread than I ever intended as I don't want to get pulled into a political discussion, but I'll give it one more try....</p>
<p>I don't live in Virginia, but my understanding of W&M and the state is that they are a lot more tolerant and friendly place, including for non-conformists and political liberals, than is being recognized here. I think I understand the sentiments expressed by many, but I also think that this episode is not representative of what this school is like and has the potential to cause many to mischaracterize a truly excellent school and a very attractive place to go to college. I hope that people will take a longer and closer look and not let this episode completely overshadow the good name at W&M. If this sorry affair pushes good people away from W&M, that would be unfortunate for everyone, no matter which side of this controversy you are on.</p>
<p>Hawkette, I don't doubt that W&M is in fact a pretty tolerant place, but I also have no doubt that it is equally true that
[quote]
Virginia is very conservative; strong right wing Christian evangelists rule. (Home of Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell) The BOV, an extenstive of this, has spoken and Nichols resigned. Right or wrong, the campus has suffered and it's reputation damaged, at least some what.
[/quote]
Perception is important, and it's hard to ignore the message that the events have sent. In fact, the arguments advanced in this thread in favor of Nichol's firing make it seem as though those were the reasons: a major donor tried to blackmail the school into reversing a very correct decision to make its chapel more inclusive for all members of the college, including non-Christians, and the President didn't cave in. People who are convinced that they know what art is and those nasty naked people sure aren't "art" and were offended that Nichols didn't do something about it.
I'd like to think those weren't the board's reasons, but that impression is hard to ignore. And if that's actually the philosophy of the board, it's not intellect-friendly. Not a good characteristic for a college.</p>
<p>Sometimes the intellect can call porn porn. Don't try to put lipstick on this pig. The group was out to make $$$ and push buttons. In some communities standards are higher than others. Not everywhere needs or wants to be NY/SF etc.</p>
<p>As a student of W&M I would like to point out that no one knows the basis for the non-renewal of Nichol's contract besides the BOV and before they begin to answer the questions of the student body no one will know. All of the comments in this thread are pure speculation brought on by the poor handling of the situation by the BOV. People are assuming that this was an ideological decision which is not necessarily true.</p>