<p>Wouldn’t identifying institutional weaknesses be part of the President’s job? I don’t think there was anything disloyal in that - how is she supposed to address the problems if they can’t be identified?</p>
Frazzled1…I agree wholeheartedly which is why I said:
Again, though, I maintain reservations should not be made public. If these were part of internal or private emails/memos between Sullivan and BOV members, I’d be really curious to know how exactly they became public.</p>
<p>It is amazing how united the U. community is to get Sullivan reinstated. 5,500 alums sent in statements of support for Sullivan through the Alumni Association. Every single dean (including the dean of admissions) and librarian endorsed a statement of support (except the dean who was to be the interim president, and he wasn’t asked, to avoid making him uncomfortable). It appears every chairman of every department and every academic program and institute has endorsed Sullivan. The nursing school faculty sent the strongest statement. The graduate student and non-tenured faculty also adopted strong statements to have Sullivan returned, as did the faculty senate and the faculty as a whole at a general meeting. </p>
<p>Former Cville mayors have also endorsed Sullivan, as have many state senators and state delegates. At least 2 former members of the Board of Visitors have said Sullivan should be re-instated, as have the 2 living former Presidents of the U.</p>
<p>My count is 14,423 to 9 (which happens to include 7 boardmembers and 2 hedge fund billionaires). </p>
<p>Two of most generous long-time donors to the U. have also endorsed Sullivan, annd many alums have pledged to condition donations upon her return.</p>
<p>By the way, Admissions Dean Roberts endorsed the reinstatement of President Sullivan along with every other dean and official of similar standing within the University. The only exception was the dean serving as interim president, who was not asked to avoid putting him in an uncomfortable situation.</p>
<p>Dean Robert’s numbers, while accurate, are actually much more mis-leading than Tudor Jones’s.</p>
<p>UVA is basically in two different businesses when it comes to admissions, yield, tuition, etc. – in-state and OOS. Roberts admits that in drawing comparisons to UNC (which is more in-state than UVA).</p>
<p>Here’s the apples to apples numbers if you want to compare UVA to Duke, Georgetown, Chicago, etc. The OOS admissions rate at UVA is 22.4%, which is actually pretty competitive with those private schools. UVA’s OOS yield is about 25%, which is about half of what you see at those privates. So Tudor Jones’ overall point is the more accurate, which even Dean Robert’s other statements prove.</p>
<p>Robert’s says that price is the second most important factor in choosing a college after reputation. Roberts points out that UVA is often more expensive for OOS students than those other privates are. As compared to its state flagship peers, UVA has comparatively less research funding dollars and state support dollars. That means UVA’s financial model is much more highly dependent on tuition (especially OOS tuition). </p>
<p>Not a strong position if UVA’s OOS price is as high or higher than its private peers who are more highly ranked (and therefore blow UVA away in yield). For OOS, UVA’s 25% yield is in the same ballpark as, say, University of Richmond. UVA’s in-state yield is up at 66%, which makes the price point in spades (in-state sticker price is 60% less than OOS). </p>
<p>The reputation/price/value of UVA OOS is a lot weaker than it used to be. And the whipsaw of no state money plus increasing state mandates is only going to make it even weaker in the future. Too bad…</p>
<p>northwesty, It is curious that I believe you said you had an OOS kid that applied to UVa. Since you feel that the schools’s reputation is “alot weaker” and you believe it is going to be “even weaker in the future,” I’m surprised you would have a child that would bother to apply since you have concerns both about the school’s reputation and the cost for an OOS student. UVa has no shortage of applicants ,both instate and out of state.</p>
<p>UVA is a great school with a great reputation today. My concern is its ability to be that in the future. When I attended OOS decades ago, UVA had an awesome combination of reputation and price/value (even for someone paying OOS prices) as compared to privates. That was possible due to prior levels of state funding.</p>
<p>Today, UVA’s OOS price has increased a lot as compared to what privates charge. After you factor in financial aid, UVA can be more expensive than competing privates. Since UVA gets so much of its budget from OOS tuition, it isn’t good that 3 of 4 OOS kids turn UVA’s price/value proposition down. Although he didn’t get the numbers right, that’s the concern that Tudor Jones (correctly in my view) was pointing at.</p>
<p>UVA has an extremely high yield from in-staters, which is expected as their price is much lower. The fear for all of us (in and out of state) is what happens to UVA’s budget and the University if it can’t keep commanding the OOS tuition dollars it is so dependent upon. And the mandates from Richmond (more in-state, more STEM, bigger classes, more online, but less state money) aren’t going to help UVA compete with, say, Georgetown or Northwestern (or even Michigan and Carolina which both are much better off financially than UVA).</p>
<p>Georgetown is actually weaker in STEM than UVA is, not that UVA is great in that area of anything. These two schools need to improve their offerings in these fields immediately or they risk falling behind to the Hopkins and Dukes of the world who dedicate exponentially more money and resources to what many consider to be the “fields of the future”.</p>
<p>video clips of today’s rally to re-instate President Sullivan and reform the board. Many great speeches by staff from every part of the University, plus some student speakers. There also were about 1,000 people watching the live feed.</p>
<p>As noted above, UVa has become expensive out of state. If you are a middle class US student, there is sufficient UVa aid to bring the price down to an affordable level. However, for higher income famillies, they can often find less expensive education at universities that provide large amounts of merit aid.</p>
<p>“a middle class US student, there is sufficient UVa aid to bring the price down to an affordable level.”</p>
<p>A lot of schools are getting to a point to be unaffordable to a great many. There are more and more people who are in the middle class. With the recent economic predictions, this recession is looking like it is going to take its sweet time to go away, at least not greatly improving for another two years. The typical American family lost 40% of its wealth and its median net worth is at a level that hasn’t been seen since early in the 90’s. </p>
<p>People are looking for the most cost-effective way to send their children to college. Many are opting for the comm college-auto admit to state school route. Also, personally I am seeing a lot more very bright kids (UVA caliber) applying/attending schools which may not have the UVA prestige, but which offer them either a lot of merit money or a guaranteed admission to a post-graduate program.</p>
<p>Back in 00/01, UVA’s OOS tuition was 70% of Gtown’s. For the upcoming year, UVA is at 90% of Gtown’s tuition. While UVA gives out a lot of aid, so does Gtown. At the 90% price point, UVA’s yield is 25%. Gtown’s is 47%. US News rankings are 25 vs 21. </p>
<p>In-state has gone from 17% to 29% of Gtown. That’s a big increase but still an overwhelming price/value ratio, which is why in-state yield is 66%. I also agree that kids increasingly are going to slightly lower ranked privates that give out big merit aid and wind up being less expensive than Gtown or UVA. </p>
<p>UVA’s model is now very dependent on OOS tuition, and that revenue, I think, is the most at risk from the “reputation gap”, which is being caused primarily by money concerns. To make the numbers work, most other flagships are increasing OOS enrollment and keeping OOS tuition increases more modest than in-state. Richmond is pushing UVA the other way, while also being in the vanguard of slashing state support. </p>
<p>So I just don’t see how UVA avoids a long slow slide as it budget position erodes as compared to both its public and private competitors.</p>
<p>KandKsmom: said" Also, personally I am seeing a lot more very bright kids (UVA caliber) applying/attending schools which may not have the UVA prestige, but which offer them either a lot of merit money or a guaranteed admission to a post-graduate program."</p>
<p>I guess OOS could be true, but in-state UVA could beat merit aid at any private school
my son applied. It was still way to expensive. And being midd-class didnt get us much or any FA, despite one in college. And our income could not handle it. UVA was the less expensive choice.</p>
<p>On another note, I know of a student giving up full ride to UVA to go to Princeton and another one giving up Harvard to get full ride at UVA. They were Jefferson Scholars.</p>
<p>Also I have another child yet to get to college, still in HS, but never heard of guaranteed admission to post-grad program…what schools offer that or where do I find that into…thanks</p>
<p>Everyone has options, instate and out of state. Some top instate kids will still potentially go to an Ivy (some paying in full or getting lots of need based aid depending on income)or another private or go the community college route or another instate school or to another public with merit(like Alabama or Pitt).Lots of choices. OOS families have similar choices-go to CC, your own state school, private with or without merit aid. UVa is charging what the market will bear. If it doesn’t work for a family,luckily there are many different options. Even with more like a 25% OOS yield, that means there are still plenty of OOS people that remain very interested in UVa.</p>
<p>U. of Pittsburgh has an extensive program of offering guaranteed future grad school admission to top high school students. Of course, there is fine print, and it probably includes some grad programs that are not extremely difficult for entry.</p>
<p>Many state flagships are now pushing 50% OOS students. IS students can’t get into their state flagship but the state next door welcomes these kids at 2-3 times the cost. State flagships are slowly becoming private schools as the cost is shifted from states to students. State schools want OOS not IS students now. Students with Ivy credentials have many options but B students are going to be in debt.</p>
<p>livelaugh, one of the auto admit programs (after ug) I am referring to is at VCU. They have auto admission to many of their medical programs at MCV for high achieving students. That one is better known, but they also offer programs like this for the Business school and others (Education, etc). Kids in the honors program entering with AP credits are offered a combined bachelor’s and master’s in 4 years in the Business school, with degrees in econ, accounting, and business administration. It is a great deal and a real draw to some families in these tough economic times.</p>
<p>To me, the most notable statement in the latest front-page story in the Wash Post (June 24) was this: “Virginia spends $8,600 per in-state student at U-Va. — far less than North Carolina, which spends $26,000 per in-state student at its flagship in Chapel Hill, or Maryland, which supports such students at College Park to the tune of $18,000 a year.”</p>