<p>^People are stupid. Three words can some it up, little do they know Cornell is far better than the schools that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the world (or they themselves) will end up going to.</p>
<p>what are the top research schools?
are they simply top graduate schools?</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard, Yale Princeton, Stanford, MIT</li>
<li>Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Brown, Amherst, Williams, Caltech, Duke</li>
<li>Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, Rice, Pomona, Swarthmore</li>
</ol>
<p>I donāt see Chicago as tier 2 at all. Penn is mid-pack tier 2.</p>
<p>slipper1234 - Why donāt you see Chicago as tier 2 by those who know? In terms of itās rep scores on US News, financial resources (which exceed Pennās, Brownās, and Dukeās - all of the schools you have on tier 2), and in terms of success of graduates at attaining rhodes scholarships, fulbrights, finance jobs, internships, etc. - Itās also matches right up to Penn and Columbia and Duke. </p>
<p>Also, besides finances, what do you see as pulling Penn down? It seems to have good placement stats, and, perhaps most importantly, seems very well respected and has a good rep - comparable or exceeding say, Brownās rep. What are you basing your ranking on here?</p>
<p>Slipper - just generally, I donāt see how you can place Chicago BEHIND dartmouth, Brown, Penn etc. for respect bestowed upon the school. All the general reputational rankings across the board place it quite highly, and I dunno, I guess I never thought of Brown or Duke or whatever as being a level above.</p>
<p>hahaha. Duke is not above Uchicago. Slipper1234 or w/e is not very knowledgeable with most of these schools. His rankings are based off of assumptions.</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard, Yale Princeton, Stanford, MIT</li>
<li>Berkeley, Columbia, Penn, Brown, Caltech, </li>
<li>Cornell, Duke, Chicago, Dartmouth, Georgetown, Rice, </li>
</ol>
<p>I may be wrong, but I think Duke is more tier 3ish, and while Northwestern is certainly worthy academically of being on this list, I donāt think it has enough name recognition to have huge prestige. </p>
<p>Of course, these are all Tier 1 schools in reality, and I think itās kind of meaningless to further stratify them, but it passes the time, haha.</p>
<p>Yah I guess Iām confused by slipperās posts. Duke is a great school, but I donāt know by what measure it surpasses Chicago. Finances, reputation, exit opportunities, etc. - Chicago seems to have the edge on all fronts. When I was at grad school at Penn, the Chicago brand got a LOT of respect. Of course, this is academia and Chicago is a powerhouse in academia, but people I talked to elsewhere - business guys, law guys, just anyone really, seemed to have a strong respect for the school. Duke didnāt seem to carry the same weight. It was respected for sure, but in the world of post-grad life at top schools, I dunno if people really say - WOW, Duke huh? Iāve heard such incredible things.</p>
<p>Oh, Duke does seem very pre-professional, and may have a slight edge in med and law placement. By every other factor though, Iād imagine Chicago gets the nod.</p>
<p>Cue- Chicago compares well to NU, Cornell, etc but I don;t see it as better. It lines up with these schools in terms of graduate placement, selectivity, and business placement but its not as strong as the Ivies you mention. </p>
<p>Hope2Rice Iāve been to two Ivies for undergrad, went to a top 5 MBA program, and work with all Ivy grads in a very selective job function. You care about graduate research prowess when I understand that factors like endowment per student, graduate placement, reputation in business, and undergraduate focus are much more important at the undergrad level. How else can you explain the demonstrable success of Williams graduates for example over places like JHU.</p>
<p><a href=āWSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insightsā>WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights;
<p>I think you are the one who needs to do some research.</p>
<p>ā¦</p>
<p>This is place is insane. As far as Iām concerned, every school listed so far tier one.</p>
<p>Simpson98 - youāre saying that people who have a strong working understanding of the college marketplace (grad school admissions officers, employers from top areas, etc.) donāt really recognize Northwestern? I find that surprising. </p>
<p>Perhaps this was an error on my part, but I realized my hierarchy roughly correlates to the āUS News reputational rankā scores. Like other posters have said, I actually think that reputational score is the closest assessment we have of how those in the know view these schools. In that light, Northwestern certainly deserves to be on Simpsonās list, Chicago and Duke should probably be bumped up, and Dartmouth and Brown should be bumped down.</p>
<p>One quick note to the B&D supporters out there, Brown and Dartmouthās bump down may be more of a sign of the rising significance of the large research university in american culture. There was a time when Dartmouth was probably alone right behind HYP as one of the best schools in america - back when the very idea of college had a certain, well, Dartmouth-like feel. Now, interestingly, not to be left behind, Brown and Dartmouth are investing considerable resources into becoming more prominent research universities, and giving up their LAC roots a bit. Why is this? Iād imagine because adminstrators sense this is the trend of the times, and they need to get on board or get passed by. Itās actually pretty good foresight on the part of Brown and Dartmouth administrators, I think.</p>
<p>Slipper - you are over-emphasizing selectivity as a factor, and seem to be looking only at very specific fields for determining the strength of the school. Do you mainly determine a schoolās success by placement in finance, law, and medicine? To look at finance, are grads from Brown or Duke really more highly coveted than Chicago grads? From my time at Chicago, I never got the sense that an econ major at Chicago would struggle more than a Penn CAS econ major or econ major from Duke. Given what you said your background is - Iām interested, why would a Penn CAS econ major, or a Brown econ guy be more highly sought after than a Chicago grad with a similar resume? </p>
<p>Overall, I guess you have to balance the pre-professional opportunities, where Chicago may be a bit behind, with the general academic clout of the school and performance in other hotly contested areas (acceptance to phd programs, performance for top scholarships and awards, etc.). Chicago may be a bit behind Brown or Penn for pre-professional opps, but ahead in terms of academic rep and performance in the other areas I mentioned. Additionally, I believe Chicago has a higher endowment per student than Columbia, Brown, Duke, and Penn. In my mind, with all this info taken as a whole, that makes all these schools come out about equal. Penn Columbia etc. may have the slight edge in pre-professional placement, Chicago has the slight edge in financial resources and academic rep. </p>
<p>I am curious to hear why you think Chicago grads falter in the business world - where you seem to have a strong background - in comparison to say, Duke and Brown grads. Are Duke and Brown grads thought to have received more rigorous preparation for finance type work? Are the Duke and Brown grads thought to have more of the intellectual horsepower needed to succeed in finance positions? What leads top finance firms like yours to recruit harder at a Duke or Penn? I donāt know finance at all, and I just sort of always assumed that with Chicagoās strong rep in economics, it would do as well as least the lower ivys. Iād be interested to hear why firms such as yours make the rational decision to recruit harder at other schools.</p>
<p>Well, my list was by no means scientific. I live in New England, so I suppose my list probably reflects some of that bias. Maybe it should be taken more as a regional prestige ranking as I really donāt have any other major experience outside of this area of the country. Brown and Dartmouth have always been held in extremely high regard by teachers, guidance counselors, etc.</p>
<p>Yah for regional prestige in New England, B&D get a lot of respect. At the same time, as I mentioned above, both these schools are kind of facing an identity crisis right now.</p>
<p>Put another way slipper1234, do the financial firms you and others work for care more about the selectivity of a college for students coming in, or the abilities and training and aptitude of the students leaving college? Again, you may very well be right and I should stand corrected, but I wanted to see the rationale firms such as yours use for seeking Brown or Duke grads more fiercely than econ or stats majors from Chicago.</p>
<p>thatās impressive slipper, but it doesnāt give you a very wholesome view or non-biased view of all the schools in the top 20-25. In fact, you really only have a good perspective of your three schools and the schools that you work with from the business field: not necessarily from a medical perspective, a Ph.D perspective, an engineering perspective, etc.</p>
<p>you do place these schools well for a guy whose into business though :)</p>
<p>Yeah i probably have a business/ professional school bias :)</p>
<p>Cue- there is no question that institutional selectivity is incredibly important. This is why the best business feeders are not actually business programs (exception Wharton) but rather liberal arts undergraduate curricula at the top schools. What matters in the long-run is critical thinking skills and a strong academic foundation - not vocational training.</p>
<p>As for Brown and Dartmouth, I disagree with your assessment. They are stronger than ever. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Brown and Dartmouth have been getting increasingly selective on a relative scale. An interesting note, Dartmouth and Brown are now are closer in acceptance rate to Princeton and Yale than they are to Penn and Duke.</p></li>
<li><p>Dartmouth dominates business and is almost up there with HYPS in this regard. Lots of threads on this topic. I would say most who work in high level strategic roles would agree.<br>
<a href=āhttp://www.dartmouth.edu/~csrc/pdfs/fair_guide.pdf[/url]ā>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~csrc/pdfs/fair_guide.pdf</a>
<a href=āhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB1217...s_inside_today[/url]ā>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1217...s_inside_today</a>
<a href=āhttp://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges[/url]ā>http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges</a>
<a href=āBankers Ballā>Bankers Ball;
<a href=āhttp://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2008/07/22/dartmouth-a-good-week-for-the-unsung-ivy-of-financial-connections/[/url]ā>http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2008/07/22/dartmouth-a-good-week-for-the-unsung-ivy-of-financial-connections/</a>
<a href=āhttp://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/235587-consulting-core-schools.html?highlight=consulting+core[/url]ā>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/235587-consulting-core-schools.html?highlight=consulting+core</a></p></li>
<li><p>Graduate placement: Dartmouth once again does phenomenally well and is way overrepresented at the top grad schools. Hereās just one list, many others confirm this.
<a href=āWSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insightsā>WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights;
<li><p>Dartmouthās endowment is much much higher than the non-HYPS Ivies on a per capita basis. Princeton now has about 1M per student, Dartmouth about 650K, places like Penn, Chicago, Cornell, Columbia (and Brown) are all between 200-300K. This is a BIG difference. It means Dartmouth can spend 3 times as much on research and advising as Penn, for example (COHE).</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Basically if Dartmouth and Brown are sending their top grads into the best business jobs, are more selective than their peers, and getting their grads into top grad schools are phenomenally high rates (above places like Chicago), I donāt understand how you can demote them at all. They are doing exactly what top schools should be doing - taking the best students, spending the most on them on research and advising, and then getting them into the best jobs and grad schools.</p>
<p>^ Slipper1234
Those āgrad schoolā numbers are for strictly Medical, Law, and Business schools only. It doesnāt mention Top Ph.D and other graduate programs where other schools would do well and even better in. How else do you explain the lower numbers for Caltech, Cornell, JHU, etc?</p>
<p>And no, if youāre judging a school by how well it can send student into m/l/b schools, then that is sad.
The list may be accurate for just these types of graduate schools, but not completely comprehensive of graduate schools as a whole, and therein, lies its flaw :)</p>
<p>But for your purposes, they work perfectly 
good job! :)</p>
<p>Yeah those grad school numbers are a bit misleading, no one would place Caltech, Cornell, and JHU so low. By the way, I think Dartmouth is pretty sweet too. Iām going to Cornell next year, but I also love Dartmouth. I think you guys are much better than Brown haha</p>
<p>slipper:</p>
<p>Thanks for the post. I think you parse too narrowly by looking primarily at professional school placement for strength of a school. In any case, I am curious to hear what factors matter the most to these financial firms looking for talent. You indicate that: āWhat matters in the long-run is critical thinking skills and a strong academic foundation - not vocational training.ā So I am assuming, in recruiting student, these firms primarily look to assess ācritical thinking skills and the academic foundationā found within the applicants.</p>
<p>On this front, why are there drastically fewer Chicago grads than, say, Dartmouth grads with the requisite level of critical thinking ability? Does Dartmouth teach these skills better than Chicago - and Dartmouth grads end up having the stronger academic foundation or critical thinking skills that these financial firms covet? </p>
<p>Put another way, do firms see Dartmouth or Penn CAS as schools that build or teach critical thinking skills in a way Chicago cannot? Right now, from one of your lists, there are 10 times more Dartmouth grads than Chicago grads at Blackstone. Now, Dartmouth is more selective than Chicago, but I would not say the students coming in are ten times more talented and sharp. So is there something that happens during a studentās four years at Dartmouth - a building of critical thinking and problem solving skills - that then allow these students to possess the skills these financial firms covet? Why does Blackstone, for example, look so heavily to Dartmouth rather than schools that, at least on paper, donāt seem to be ten times worse (Georgetown, Chicago, Swarthmore, whatever). I am curious to hear the rational and economical reason why these firms feel that these certain schools teach the skills the firms covet the most.</p>