Prestige versus Cost

Parents Forum
21

<p>If your son likes the small LAC feel and the DIII sports opportunities, you might consider casting a wider net in the LAC ranks for better financial aid. Kenyon is ranked something like #32 on USNWR for LACs. I would peruse the list down to about #60 and find some more options. He might garner merit aid that will help more, and the schools down to that level will still provide an excellent education.</p>

<p>One other consideration is that if he does decide to go to grad school, that will cost him because he is interested in the humanities (science grad students can usually get their studies funded). So taking on a lot of debt is not a good idea if he does plan to go down that route.</p>

22

<p>SteveMA and others regarding how far will he go from home. We live near Cincinnati and I think he and my wife would prefer no farther than 3 hours. So we are looking at Ohio, Kentucky, and southern half of Indiana. I probably should have mentioned that earlier.</p>

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<p>Have a look a Centre College in Danville, KY. It’s only a little over two hours from Cincinnati. It has an excellent reputation and I think it would offer a lot of the benefits of Kenyon–but he might have a shot at some good merit aid.</p>

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<p>Good info on merit money compiled by Kiplinger:
[Best</a> Values in Private Colleges, 2012-13](<a href=“Kiplinger | Personal Finance News, Investing Advice, Business Forecasts”>Kiplinger | Personal Finance News, Investing Advice, Business Forecasts)=ALL&id=none</p>

<p>There is a separate table for private universities, see the controls at the top. Note that some schools have generous amounts for merit aid but offer it to very few students. So you need to look at both numbers!</p>

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<p>4.0 GPA and 31 ACT produces some automatic large merit scholarships, up to full ride (i.e. there may be more choices). Look here: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Did he take the PSAT in October? He wouldn’t have scores back yet, but his 31 on the ACT indicates that he’s a strong test taker. Asking because Denison in Ohio has a great NMF package and is just 1/2 hour down the road from Kenyon.</p>

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<p>If you’d consider going an hour further north (Michigan), Eastern Michigan is a great teaching college and has had a member of the track team in the Olympics every cycle for decades. With those stats, he could possibly qualify for some of their top merit scholarships. It’s not a selective school, but I know some top students who are in their honors program who are being challenged that way. It is highly regarded for its education program and there are a lot of Ohio students there. There used to be a reciprocal agreement with Ohio, giving them in-state tuition. I’m not sure if that’s still the case. It is about a 4.5 hour drive.</p>

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<p>Actually, going to a more prestigious school can be very useful for students planning on getting a PhD and entering academe, especially in the humanities. The quality and reputation of the undergraduate institution are quite important to the student’s ability to gain admission to better (i.e. funded) graduate programs. Funded PhDs are important in the humanities as well as in the sciences. Kenyon is the far superior choice for a student who wants to be a “small college prof.” I wouldn’t even consider Cumberland if your son has the slightest interest in becoming a professor at some point down the line. The suggestion of Centre is good; and, of course, your state flagship. Graduates from non-selective teacher training colleges do not do well in getting into funded PhD programs, and it’s not a good idea to go for a PhD in the humanities without funding.</p>

<p>PS The K-12 “education world” is totally different from the post-secondary “education world.” They are different careers entirely.</p>

29

<p>There is NO correlation between prestige or cost and either quality of education or future career prospects - with a very narrow set of career prospect exceptions that do not apply in your son’s case. This is not just my opinion - it is based on 30 years of research, involving dozens of studies which have looked for those correlations and found none. It makes no sense at all to spend more than you have to on an undergraduate education.</p>

30

<p>Consider your best state schools for a good match peer group. Even though he may not be in D1 sports they likely will have club running ay a place like Ohio State. He needs to figure out if he wants to be a teacher or go the PhD in English route, then try to get a job at a college. The two arew very different goals and determine wich sort of school to aim for. Does he want an education major or not? Some schools won’t be as good with teacher training, take that into consideration. The running can be done competitively at D1 schools by joining the club sport version and competing at D3 meets (UW-Madison has a track club that goes to the national club CC meets so I bet Ohio State likely does as well). It is surprising how many activites are available at large schools beyond the Big Ten et al level.</p>

<p>You do want to make sure he picks a good match school, not just the cheapest. He should aim for the best education within budget. This could be public over private, large or small. None of the private schools mentioned so far in this thread are very prestigious compared to midwest flagship schools. Locally, perhaps, but not outside the region.</p>

31

<p>Earlham, Dickinson, Gettysburg, Denison, Rhodes, Wooster, Kalamazoo, Muhlenberg, and Knox are not so far away. All are LACs that might give significant merit aid for his grades and scores.</p>

32

<p>I personally know a top cc runner who is now at Dayton with what I believe was a very nice package. Didn’t hurt that he was also a top student.</p>

33

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<p>Have a close look at two schools the OP apparently is considering (Kenyon and the University of the Cumberlands). Kenyon is more prestigious and more expensive (before aid). Does it also offer a better education?</p>

<p>Consider a popular major like English. Here are descriptions of the 19 courses offered at Cumberlands:
[University</a> of the Cumberlands | Academics](<a href=“http://www.ucumberlands.edu/academics/english/course-descriptions.php]University”>http://www.ucumberlands.edu/academics/english/course-descriptions.php)
The first 3 look like high school level courses. 5 of the others are survey courses. There is no course specializing n Shakespeare, Chaucer, or any other major English author.
Here are the faculty profiles:
[University</a> of the Cumberlands | Academics](<a href=“http://www.ucumberlands.edu/academics/english/faculty.php]University”>http://www.ucumberlands.edu/academics/english/faculty.php)
Only 5 of 9 professors have PhDs (from Kansas, Middle Tennessee State (3), and Auburn).</p>

<p>Here are descriptions of the nearly 100 English courses offered at Kenyon:
[English</a> - Academics - Kenyon College](<a href=“http://www.kenyon.edu/x10223.xml]English”>http://www.kenyon.edu/x10223.xml)
These include 3 courses on Shakespeare (not including one on the Elizabethan Age), 2 on Chaucer, one on Milton, and one each on Jane Austen, Virginia Wolff, James Joyce, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and William Faulkner.</p>

<p>Here are profiles of 29 professors in Kenyon’s English department:
[English</a> Faculty - English - Kenyon College](<a href=“http://www.kenyon.edu/x41231.xml]English”>http://www.kenyon.edu/x41231.xml)
All but about 6 or 7 have PhDs (from universities including Berkeley, Chicago, Duke, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Virginia, and Yale). Several of the exceptions are writers-in-resident (such as journalist and author Roger Rosenblatt, winner of the Peabody and Emmy awards).</p>

<p>Kenyon, by the way, has fewer undergraduates than Cumberlands.</p>

<p>It seems rather clear to me that Kenyon provides a much richer, more interesting environment in which to major in English than the University of the Cumberlands. That doesn’t necessarily mean a public school English teacher will make any more money starting out with a degree from Kenyon. But, is the typical Kenyon graduate likely to be a better-educated English teacher than the typical Cumberlands graduate (assuming equal ability and effort going into both programs)? If the answer is “yes”, then would Kenyon be worth an extra financial investment? If it were my kid, and if I could afford it, the answer would be “yes”. Within reason, of course, and bearing in mind that these aren’t the only two choices.</p>

34

<p>Agree with intparent that there are lots of other great small schools around where merit money plus need-based aid could make the cost far lower. What other schools has your son looked at? What are his criteria? </p>

<p>I’d start out by first finding as many schools as possible that would be good fits academically and socially, as well as (at some level) affordable.</p>

35

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<p>I must disagree very strongly in this case. The quality and reputation of the undergraduate English program will make a great deal of difference in a student’s possibility of acceptance to a funded, ranked PhD program. That’s the truth. It is very irresponsible to claim otherwise. Graduate students who pay to go to unranked humanities graduate programs don’t get jobs in academe. So if the OP’s son has the slightest interest in being a professor someday, it matters very much where he goes to undergrad and where he majors in English. He would be much, much better off at his state flagship than at Cumberland if he wants to become a professor, or, as intparent has mentioned, applying to LACs with strong programs in English that also offer merit aid for students with his stats.</p>

36

<p>What do I think? If it’s affordable, I’d send him to Kenyon and never look back. But I also agree with intparent. Why not also apply to other Ohio or local schools–Oberlin comes to mind, and see who gives you the best package.</p>

<p>College is not just about the classes and the textbooks, it’s about who you learn with. Not only does that make for a richer learning environment, IMO, it’s about being in an environment with smart, motivated, creative kids from all over the country. Not to say they don’t exist at Cumberlands, but you won’t have to search for them at a place like Kenyon. I understand the money/job trade-off, but if you can afford it, this is the chance your kid has to explore not just academically but also socially.</p>

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<p>You say it’s affordable, so that’s good. Where do you think he’d be happiest at? Sometimes it may be at the “better” college, or it may not be. Sometimes, those better colleges are very stressful and he may find he doesn’t have much time for doing things he wants to do. But then again, people say no pain, no gain. So, maybe if he chose one school he might think it’s too unchallenging and be bored.</p>

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<p>Yes, as #33 points out, there can be a large difference in the offerings in a given department or major at different schools, regardless of cost, prestige, etc… Look carefully at the offerings in the student’s intended or possible major(s) to determine academic suitability of each school.</p>

<p>You may wish to broaden your search – you may find other schools with relatively good offerings in the student’s intended or possible major(s) but with lower cost. The choice need not be between just Kenyon (that you don’t like the cost of) or Cumberlands (with a relatively weak English department) if you can find one or more other schools with stronger English departments but lower cost.</p>

<p>But note, however, that many of Kenyon’s English courses are offered only once every two or three years, so a student must plan carefully to avoid missing a desired course over a four year bachelor’s degree program. This is fairly common at smaller schools.</p>

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<p>Kenyon requires English majors to complete a total of 11 courses offered or approved by the department. The English department offers nearly 100 courses. So, even if the average course is offered only once every 2 years, an English major shouldn’t have too much trouble finding 11 courses. Even the specific course requirements (e.g. for at least 1 course unit covering pre-1700 literature) seem to have quite a few options.</p>

<p>On the other hand, Kenyon’s English department may not be a very representative example of course offerings at small LACs. It is one of the strongest undergraduate English departments in America.</p>

40

<p>There are plenty of LACs in the area that are between Kenyon and Cumberlands academically where your son would likely get a larger scholarship, and where the academics would be better than at Cumberlands. Off the top of my head, I’d look at Hiram, College of Wooster, Otterbein, John Carroll and Wittenberg in Ohio; Hanover and Earlham in Indiana; and Centre College in Kentucky. If your son is willing to go further afield, there are some excellent choices in Wisconsin and Minnesota as well.</p>