Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

Parents Forum
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<p>To stray from the last several posts...
I think there is plenty to discrimination against Asians in this country and I believe there is a need to fight it, change it or whatever you will. </p>

<p>I just don't think Jian Li's fight through the college admissions process is the best place to start. It's fraught with too many problems and the lack of solid and substantial evidence makes it a pretty unconvincing case. </p>

<p>I think there are other areas where Asian Americans should fight…how about more representation in government? Wouldn’t that be a more fertile and worthwhile pursuit?</p>

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<p>But that, due to years of formal training ,may be all he is capable of. The reason to sometimes take a chance on a promising unknown is that person could very well be the next world record holder. Is it worth ignoring untapped potential?</p>

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<p>Race blind in theory in theory but not in result. Ever notice how in top college track programs some races often end up concentrated in certain events? Most of the sprinters are black and most of the distance guys are white. Whether this is due to biological or cultural reasons is beside the point. The point is that it's a fact.</p>

<p>So when a coach says "I've got enough distance guys, so I won't recruit miler Bob. I'll recruit sprinter Tom instead, even though Tom's sprint stats are not as strong as Bob's mile stats. I need to fill the sprint slots on the team." The net result often has racial implications because of who most of the sprinters and distances guys are.</p>

<p>When an adcom says "I've got enough math major/violinist guys, so I won't recruit math major/violinist Bob. I'll recruit Classics major/basketball player Tom instead, even though Tom's academic stats are not as strong as Bob's academic stats. I need to fill the Classics and basketball slots in the student body." The net result often has racial implications because of who most of the math/violinist and Classics/basketball guys are.</p>

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<p>No simba, sorry. My misunderstanding. I thought 221 points were taken OFF of Asian applicants. It is only 50. That makes a lot more sense. It's a lot of Saturdays to give up for 50 points but it makes sense that it is possible to raise aptitude test scores by rote study.</p>

<p>I am in complete agreement with giving AfAm 221 points--even wealthy AfAms. We disagree on the benefits of this policy. I say the benefits are flawed but still good and worthwhile for American society. You say they are not. We must agree to disagree--and vote our conscience.</p>

<p>fabrizio, Praise Jesus the almighty, you cannot seriously believe that US public schools, funded by property tax, are anything like an equal opportunity. If and when they become equal opportunities, then talk to me about eliminating affirmative action. Until then, welcome to America, the imperfect melting pot.</p>

<p>wupat, you should have been on CC last year when we discussed Jung Chang's book on Mao. China has accomplished many many things in this past half century--quite a few of them on the back of fear, brutality and slaughter. Perhaps this was the only way for China to catch up to western economies, perhaps Mao did have some redeeming qualities-- but please, don't hold up the modern Chinese totalitarian model for imitation. No thanks.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

Ever notice how in top college track programs some races often end up concentrated in certain events? Most of the sprinters are black and most of the distance guys are white. Whether this is due to biological or cultural reasons is beside the point. The point is that it's a fact.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Indeed, I notice this.</p>

<p>Since diversity is so important on college campuses, shouldn't it be equally important in college sports teams?</p>

<p>Why is it that race can be a factor to create a "diverse" campus, but it shouldn't be a factor to create a diverse team?</p>

<p>You have said that most of the sprinters are black. Tell me why a policy that seeks to recruit white sprinters simply because they are white is not racist. They're under-represented on the team, aren't they?</p>

<p>Tell me why a policy that seeks to recruit black distance runners simply because they are black is not racist. They're under-represented on the team, aren't they?</p>

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<p>What if a school didn't discriminate (notice differences) at all? Would that be good? Would the law of averages deliver diverse classes of students every year who wanted to study the diverse things the faculty offered? I'm thinking of the Woody Allen film "Love and Death", where a character is speculating about the chaos that would result if everyone in town showed up at the same restaurant on the same night...but they don't. I don't have any answers, but I can see why the schools try to "discriminate" in the good sense of noticing differences and trying to get a good mix in their community.</p>

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<p>Sorry to interrupt the flow. Just read some comments on how a top school has 7000 qualified applicants but only 1200 openings. I totally disagree with this argument. If this is true, then the colleges set their standard too low, or at least they can raise their standard higher. </p>

<p>The reason that there are so many 2400 SAT students is because it is too easy. Compared with the degree of difficulties of college entrance exams in east asian countries (Japan, China, Korea) and very possibly Russia and other European countries as well, SAT is way too easy. The effective ceiling here already has severely limited academic competition, and provide futile ground for mediocrity. But a lower standard SAT is good for those who favor "holistic" approach.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

No simba, sorry. My misunderstanding. I thought 221 points were taken OFF of Asian applicants. It is only 50. That makes a lot more sense. It's a lot of Saturdays to give up for 50 points but it makes sense.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Only 50? So, you think it's OK to tell someone that the best he can do is not good enough?</p>

<p>
[quote]

I am in complete agreement with giving AfAm 221 points--even wealthy AfAms. We disagree on the benefits of this policy. I say the benefits are flawed but still good and worthwhile. You say they are not. We must agree to disagree--and vote our conscience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How is it fair to grant someone 220 points because he was born a certain race? Surely you see the inherent racism in that?</p>

<p>I guess not, since you say that taking 50 points off someone's score is fair.</p>

<p>
[quote]

fabrizio, Praise Jesus the almighty, you cannot seriously believe that US public schools, funded by property tax, are anything like an equal opportunity. If and when they become equal opportunities, then talk to me about eliminating affirmative action. Until then, welcome to America, the imperfect melting pot.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, instead of supporting extra funding to schools that need it, you support removing points from certain applicants and adding points to others. I'm still in shock that you actually SUPPORT removing 50 points from someone's score because he was born a certain race.</p>

<p>
[quote]

wupat, you should have been on Cc last year when we discussed Jung Chang's book on Mao. China has accomplished many many things in this past half century--quite a few of them on the back of fear, brutality and slaughter. Perhaps this was the only way for China to catch up to western economies, perhaps Mao did have some redeeming qualities but please, don't hold up the Chinese model for imitation. No thanks.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is there something wrong with investing in citizens by training them to perform better?</p>

<p>Oh, that's right. You're the one who supports taking 50 points off someone's score as fair. You're the one who supports adding 220 points to someone else's score as fair.</p>

<p>I am in utter shock that you actually believe that it is fair to take something away from a student who earned it.</p>

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<p>Might that depend on whether the under represented student sprinter/miler was/had potential to be equally qualified? Lowering the bar would be racism but diversification among equals would not.</p>

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<p>"Lowering the bar would be racism but diversification among equals would not."</p>

<p>how would you define/quantify equal?</p>

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<p>"I am in complete agreement with giving AfAm 221 points--even wealthy AfAms."</p>

<p>wow what a country when her citizens believe that it is OK to reward mediocre efforts.</p>

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<p>Oh it is. Athletic teams are not at all blind to idea of racial diversity. Whenever a talented white sprinter, such as Jeremy Wariner, comes along, schools fall all over themselves trying to get him because they are acutely aware of the lack of diversity among their sprinters. Same with black American milers. </p>

<p>And it continues past college. Now that he has gone pro, Jeremy Wariner commands much higher appearance fees at track meets than most other athletes of similar talent and achievements, because the meet promoters bid against each other for his services. They just love to have the diversity of a talented white sprinter in their events. </p>

<p>And you see the same thing in the NBA. Teams and the league are very conscious of their lack of racial diversity and seek to correct it wherever they can. Once you get past the available superstars and you are filling in the back end of the roster, who do you think is going make the team? The journeyman black guy or the journeyman white guy? The white guy will win the slot nearly every time - for the sake of diversity. From the team's point of view, they've already got enough black guys.</p>

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<p>"I think there are other areas where Asian Americans should fight…how about more representation in government? Wouldn’t that be a more fertile and worthwhile pursuit?"</p>

<p>Yes!</p>

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<p>^ It will come with time.</p>

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<p>Women are half of our population and our representation in politics is still lame.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The reason that there are so many 2400 SAT students is because it is too easy. Compared with the degree of difficulties of college entrance exams in east asian countries (Japan, China, Korea) and very possibly Russia and other European countries as well, SAT is way too easy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>cj3051, this would make a lot of sense if U.S. private colleges wanted to move to a more test-oriented admissions system.</p>

<p>But if they prefer to stick with the holistic system, maybe a case could be made for moving in the opposite direction, and doing it openly. Maybe the SAT should simply have a 5-point scale, like an AP test. That way, the most selective colleges would simply choose from among the kids with 5s, based on other criteria, and everyone would know that they were doing it that way.</p>

<p>One advantage to this system is that it would make it blindingly obvious to newcomers to the United States that there is more to college admissions than the SAT.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

Oh it is. Athletic teams are not at all blind to idea of racial diversity. Whenever a talented white sprinter, such as Jeremy Wariner, comes along, schools fall all over themselves trying to get him because they are acutely aware of the lack of diversity among their sprinters. Same with black American milers.</p>

<p>And it continues past college. Now that he has gone pro, Jeremy Wariner commands much higher appearance fees at track meets than most other athletes of similar talent and achievements, because the meet promoters bid against each other for his services. They just love to have the diversity of a talented white sprinter in their events.</p>

<p>And you see the same thing in the NBA. Teams and the league are very conscious of their lack of racial diversity and seek to correct it wherever they can. Once you get past the available superstars and you are filling in the back end of the roster, who do you think is going make the team? The journeyman black guy or the journeyman white guy? The white guy will win the slot nearly every time - for the sake of diversity. From the team's point of view, they've already got enough black guys.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So it's OK for race to trump individual talent and merit?</p>

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<p>I agree that colleges don't want students who only study, ignore extracurricular things like sports and theatre, and suck the fun out of college.</p>

<p>But wait, why do people assume that Asians do the things I've mentioned? Why can't Asians have kickass SAT scores, be a violin virtuoso, AND be a big contributor to college life? It's the typical stereotyping of minorities that do not allow them to be full-fledged human beings, because only the dominant group can be that. A minority has to be smart but weak, or dumb but strong; there always has to be a trade-off at the end to ensure the continued dominance of the ruling group.</p>

<p>I sincerely feel for all the Asian kids out there how love violin and medicine, and people always dismiss them as being "typically Asian". I don't think any other ethnic group has to suffer the injustice of having their positive traits (in this case, musicality and intelligence) transformed into such negative stereotypes.</p>

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<p>Yeah, but the kids in sub-standard schools would have little chance for a 5.</p>

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<p>Over-represented? What does that mean anyway? If there are tons of qualified Asian applicants (intelligent, involved, etc.), then it's still an injustice if loads of them are rejected based on "over-representation". It's admirable that colleges are trying to be a Model UN, but they are academic institutions first and foremost.</p>