Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

<p>It is interesting to note that many of the Asian student CCers often refer to themselves as stereotypical math-science stringed-instrument-playing high-scoring Asians. Perhaps this is a cultural issue of parents pushing their children into activities that they have deemed important to college admission in the past and now there is a "glut" of students who, for the most part, appear identical on paper. Since colleges are stressing diversity, admitting students based solely on test scores may indeed lead to a lack of diversity and not a well-rounded class.</p>

<p>The largest contingents at HYP and Columbia come from the same three geographical areas: New England, Mid-Atlantic and CA. Some years ago, a student cited some statistics according to which most Harvard graduates ended up in Boston, NYC and SF.</p>

<p>I'm interested in seeing what his extracurriculars were then, since he was accepted into Yale.</p>

<p>Lets take Li's argument to its logical conclusion and see what happens. Since Asians have the highest test scores/gpas, then (according to Li) they are the most qualified and are admitted in higher numbers. Soon the student body is made up of a majority of Asians, and guess what? Students of other races won't want to go there anymore. It may seem racist, but its a sad fact. So what is left? An outstanding university for Asian students. </p>

<p>To see this in real life, look at UCBerkeley. It now has 48% Asian population (or close to that). I know of several top (white) high school students who took one look at the campus and said "I don't want to go here, there are too many Asians," and proceeded to look elsewhere. </p>

<p>Yes, it is their choice to evaluate a university based on its racial makeup, but EVERYONE considers this, whether they are willing to or not. Is it discrimination? Yes! Is it wrongful discrimination? No! It is human nature.</p>

<p>The reality is that most universities want to create a diverse student body that is appealing to as many races as possible. If that means balancing the races somehow, then it makes sense to me.</p>

<p>This is a late reply to a post of Curmudgeon's on the 1st page of this thread.....
Cur,
I loved this:The best football players have something you can't measure on a scale or with a watch. Elusiveness. Shiftiness. Competitiveness. Will to win. Never say die. "4th quarter-so tired you can't lift your legs but I'm ready, coach-speed" is what's important. "Crarmping all game but I can still play another series, coach-strength" is what's important. Greatness. It is not easily definable in a ball player but it's certainly easier to define than a "top student". </p>

<p>I just got some grief last nite when I was asking my girlfriends "how do you get a kid to strive for excellence?" and the pushback I got was huge...."no kid should be striving for excellence" blah blah blah. And then I read your sports analogy.....and you are right on the money. I loved Tsdad's response:
"send me in coach!" I am not sure if one can really teach that level of passion or that level of commitment.....but that ethic of giving all you have is truly something that separates the best from the wanna be bests. </p>

<p>Thanks for posting....I hope one doesn't have to raise goats in Texas to develop this skill......LOL.....</p>

<p>There are many kinds of diversity.
We talked about the issue of diversity with S over the weekend. We were reminded that one reason he chose Harvard over MITwas that he wanted kids who were academically more diverse. It was not the only one--the other being that he is not an engineer at heart. He's having his wish. One of his suitemates seems to be changing majors every week! He's also got involved in ECs he might not have thought up on his own.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In fact, if it is much harder to get into some schools as an Asian, there must be some form of quota regarding Asians.

[/quote]
But we haven't seen proof that it is. What we see is it is harder to get into some schools if you see a pre-med/science major, list tennis & violin & math club as your ECs, and live in the northeast.</p>

<p>Of course many colleges are trying for what they euphemistically call a "balanced" or "diverse" class. To achieve this, at times you must impose limits which would un-euphemistically be called "quotas" by many. What if, let's just say hypothetically you admitted soley on an objective measurement of test scores and grades and extracurricular activities (points scored for offices held and awards earned). What if Harvard ended up with a class comprised of 80% Asian females (the other 20% being football players and development admits)? Maybe that's ok, maybe not, but I don't think it is what the school wants.</p>

<p>Curmudgeon,
Cecil Rhodes was an imperialist and a racist,
and the goal of the Rhodes scholarship was to create an elite class of American philosopher-kings, subservient to a dominant British empire, in an Anglo-Arian world hegemony over all non-European peoples.
I would hardly characterize the intention and the methodology of the Rhodes scholarship as a paradigm of merit.
Yet American universities use a very similar 'holistic' process, and its origins do, in fact, have to do in keeping out qualified but less desired minorities from universities (Jews).
The values we label 'character-personal qualities' are in no way reflections of objectively good qualities for a human being to have. Rather, they are the cultural ideals of early Anglo-Saxon America, an outgrowth of the original English values that Cecil Rhodes espoused.
It is curious that colleges use the SAT to comparatively measure intelligence, yet whenever a student such as Jian Lee demonstrates his intellectual potential by their measure, and no one can find a rationalization for his rejection, then suddenly everyone proclaims that the SAT are worthless as a test of intellectual ability. If so, why are they still used?</p>

<p>Having read through the posts of college confidential generally, I have often come across the moniker "Average Asian"- normally a student who is academically superqualified to many of the colleges he desires to study in, and had he not been Asian he would have been "super white man" or "extraordinary biracial" rather than "average asian". The fact is that his race is interfering with his education, and this enrages me. It is racism, and if we as a society wish to give up a European heritage whose contact with foreign cultures was characterized by racism, then this is a place to start.</p>

<p>I don't even think that the asian student involved here would want to go to an all asian school. So, I really don't see the point to his whole argument.</p>

<p>I for one am in favor of a well-rounded student body.</p>

<p>Go Janet, Go marite, Go cur.</p>

<p>Sick & tired of the distortions. Also sick and tired of the broad-brush efforts, either positive or negative. No ethnic group or subgroup is onesidedly angelic or devilish, perfect or undesirable for admission to an elite. (I'm not so obliquely referring to another thread which contained excessive eulogies about Asian Americans.)Being a student, includiing an outstanding one, is comprised of many elements, not necessarily defined, or limited by, one's ethnicity or immediate environment. And I'll say this again: the "elites" are looking for human beings, not just students, & they'll find them from many sources. They especially hope to admit superior students and those with a sense of humanity, together in the same student.</p>

<p>race is not an accurate measure of either well roundedness or diversity. I would think that intellectual diversity is far more exciting than the same thinking being coming in different shades. I have many Asian friends who are strikingly different, and I hope this does not surprise anyone. They are not defined by their Asianness. At the same time, there can be places with racial pluralism, but without diversity- diversity of experience, idea, goals and ideals.</p>

<p>JHS, re your post #28, while I don't hear about blatant anti-Jewish discrimination, I do hear that admissions criteria are heightened for Jewish girls in the NYC metro area, because there are just too many of them, all presenting similar, highly qualified profiles.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The values we label 'character-personal qualities' are in no way reflections of objectively good qualities for a human being to have.

[/quote]
I'm really stumped. Either I'm misunderstanding you, or I couldn't disagree more. </p>

<p>Here are a few statements from the admissions page of a top 20 University website. THey all convey a similar approach to admissions. I fail to see why applicants don't believe them when they say they have more tremendously talented applicants than seats. Nowhere does it imply that SATs are the only measure:</p>

<p>"As our admissions committee evaluates applications and makes decisions regarding them we make difficult choices among an extraordinary group of students. Although we are very proud of the class we enroll every year, we also realize that we are unable to admit all of the excellent young people who apply." </p>

<p>"The most competitive of our applicants are very involved, dedicating time outside the classroom to various clubs, teams, organizations, community service activities, and part-time employment. All of our admitted students display passion for, commitment to, and leadership in their activities outside of school. Whether a world-class pianist or a well-rounded senior class leader, our students get involved, stay involved, and facilitate the involvement of others. Find activities you love. Dedicate time to them. Take responsibility for them. Then, tell us about them."</p>

<p>"The most competitive students in our applicant pool have taken the most rigorous high school curriculum available to them, have excelled in it, and have risen to the top of their high school class. It is important to realize that student applications are assessed both in the context of his/her particular high school and in the context of an extremely competitive applicant pool. No minimum grade point average or class rank is required to apply or to be admitted to. In general, our office states that the more rigorous your course selection, the better your grades, and the higher your class rank, the more competitive your application will be. Know that our admissions committee will use every means possible to understand your application and to build the best case possible for your admission."</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have many Asian friends who are strikingly different, and I hope this does not surprise anyone. They are not defined by their Asianness.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And many of them do end up at HYPSM. It's not as if those schools are totally devoid of Asians--including violin-playing premed Asians.</p>

<p>Yes, Epiphany and Orangetree, diversity can mean many things, and we don't HAVE to look at race...</p>

<p>But lets be REAL. Look at your own lives. Who are your mates, the majority of your friends, your children's friends? I guarantee they are the same race as you!!</p>

<p>Everyone wants to deny that race matters, but it DOES matter to EVERYONE! Most people do not want to go to a single-race school, even if it is their own. Universities know this obvious fact, and need a student body to attract everyone, not just the top GPA/test scorers. </p>

<p>It doesn't mean one race is better than another, it just means we want something of everything in the pot, and somehow the university needs to figure out how to do that. Why can't people accept this?</p>

<p>In another forum, someone pointed out that Rapelye had two children accepted in Princeton. If that is true, it would be interesting to compare her children's qulifications with that of Jian Li. Let's see how holistic Princeton's admission policy is.</p>

<p>Orangetree, looking a number of very good highschools, both private and public who have a large percentage of kids applying to selective colleges, and high proportion of Asians, when I look at their stat books over the last 5 years, kids who fit an Asian profile, regardless of their background tend get waitlisted in the top schools. The kids that get in tend to have a strong hook IN ADDITION to high scores, and those hooks are legacy, development, URM status, athletic recruit, high profile mover and shaker leader, celebrity or semi celebrity parent or self, or seriously challenged in life. Did not see many Asians with those little asteriks indicating those hooks. And those, white or Asian, with out those little asteriked did not get in as readily as those with them, despite some danged high scores and some serious musical talent, usually on the piano or violin. (They can always use a male tenor, it seems in a school, but I did not see one Asian with that hook). Also the majors tended to be in the sciences often, lab type, equipment needed majors that restrict the number of freshman that can physically take the course. You can always add another classroom in an alcove, but when you need that bunsen burner, you've gotta be strict with that headcount. </p>

<p>Many schools turn the SAT scores into a number that indicates a range and is averaged with other numbers to come up with number as to how desireable a student is. If the break point of a number is 1500 for the top numeric in test score, it does not help you to be in the upper range of that.Somone at the lower range who has more interesting essays, more exciting teacher recs, more needed ecs is going to trump that perfect SAT and top class rank, especially if he is no schluff in those areas too. That is waht happens to a lot of Asian applicants. Make a list of what the top schools want in a student and then give each category a numerical score, being aware that being the very top does not give any more points as barely making the catergory, and you can see how an Asian applicant whose strongest points are his perfect gpa and test scores may not make the cut at schools where some other demonstrated excellence is demanded, and about 10% of the applicants are taken. There are many Asian applicants to such schools, so there are many rejected. I believe from what I have seen in the stats, that actual % of Asian students accepted i often higher than any other group. Of course, since so many non URMs do not indicate their race in the optional space on the apps, it is difficult to know how many Asians there are in these school, cuz you know they go by those numbers. They don't pore over the app and use an Asian detector or a magnifying class on the face book and try to identify the number of Asians.</p>

<p>Holistic means, inter alia, taking hooks into account. Being a facbrat is a far better hook than being a URM, an athlete or a run-of-the mill legacy. I heard a Harvard prof describe Harvard as her children's safety. How many people can call HYP a safety? Still, I also know of facbrats who've been rejected by their parents' institution--and some who even dropped out of college or did not even go to college. In other words, facbrats need to reach beyond a certain threshhold to be admitted. So I'll assume two things. Rapelye's children benefitted from being facbrats; and they had acceptable academic credentials. Well, duh.</p>

<p>cptofthehouse's analysis was spot on. It does not matter if one applicant had a perfect 800 while another had "only" 750. Once past a certain threshhold, both will be given another look, and other factors will come into play.
Time to fess up. S did not have perfect SATs or the highest GPA.</p>