<p>If my daughter was one of those band members and they would have touched one hair of my daughter, I would have sued the pants out those cadets AND the school. If the band was offensive, the administration should have stepped in and kicked them out. The school has liability by inviting other students on campus and not safeguard their safety.</p>
<p>It’s important to analyze the intent of each–the Princeton band’s intent was to entertain, parody, and make some jabs at the citadel in the style that scramble bands are known for. The intent of the cadets was to intimidate and threaten the band. I agree with jessiehl; they should have expected to have been booed, but the permission given by the Citadel’s administration also served as an assurance that they would not be harmed or have to face what they eventually ended up facing. The band was doing what it always does; the cadets were doing what falls outside the bounds of human decency. If the Princeton band’s performance was truly outside the bounds of decency (and worse than their other performances which did not overly offend other schools), then the cadets should have assumed that the band would somehow be punished, either by the Citadel’s administration or Princeton’s administration, and that they should leave it at that.</p>
<p>There are not two sides here, and let’s not blame the victim. Really people, there is right and wrong.</p>
<p>Here is what the Citadel brags about on its web site.</p>
<p>Honor is the most cherished principle at The Citadel. In today’s post-corporate-scandal society, honor, integrity, and ethics are in high demand. The Citadel strives to achieve excellence in the education of principled leaders, also known as the “whole person” concept. The Honor Code encompasses all aspects of cadet life, from academic integrity to personal integrity. It has evolved from an unwritten tradition known as the “code of the gentleman” to a formalized code in September of 1955, when the Corps of Cadets unanimously voted to establish The Honor Code. The development of a cadet into a principled leader is a four-tiered process that includes knowing, adhering, believing, and leading. Its culmination is seen in the cadets who internalize the Code, and the alumni who continually apply it throughout their lives.</p>
<p>More junk from the Citadel’s self-glorifying web site:</p>
<p>Values and Respect
Respect – respect for oneself and respect for others – is an essential quality of a principled leader.</p>
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<p>Why? I wouldn’t have known that just marching near the parade field (note that even the anti-Princeton band article doesn’t say that they were doing anything disrespectful as they marched there, it just faults them for having gone there in the first place on their <em>pre-approved route</em>) would get me attacked. Or even that it would anger cadets - after all, I wouldn’t expect a strange school’s administration to send me into areas that would seriously upset their own students.</p>
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<p>No, risky behavior by definition assumes <em>some</em> risks, not <em>all</em> possible risks. The risks that I’m assuming if I, say, climb a tree, while sober, are somewhat different than the risks I’m assuming if I drive drunk (though both have very bad failure modes).</p>
<p>I’m rather amazed at the “Asking for it” mentality among some here. Victim-blaming, anyone?</p>
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<p>Sorry, I thought most everyone would get my sarcasm. Grambling is an HBC, you see.</p>
<p>My point simply is that I believe the attitudes I’m seeing here would be modified if the target of the humour had been something other than a southern military college. Simple as that. Wouldn’t have to be Grambling, but that serves as a good example for my point. Maybe I’m wrong about that. I doubt it. </p>
<p>Anyway, don’t try this at Texas A&M.</p>
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Seriously. They would not have come out alive.</p>
<p>Be sure - those of you who make fun of the Citadel and their honor code - there will be sanctions. If asked Cadets who were involved must come forward. This will go on their record and could affect their military career if they are choosing to commission.</p>
<p>I get that Princeton thought they were funny. I also get that the cadets at The Citadel would fail to find humor. The booing is just that - booing for Princeton insulting them.
The altercation sounds like a few bad apples who have brought dishonor to an honorable institution.</p>
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<p>What an interesting assumption.</p>
<p>I’m from the South, and have relatives serving in the military (and am the grandchild of a fallen airman). I’ve had friends at military schools. I don’t care what sort of school it was or what region it was in. Their attacks on the Princeton band (I don’t care about the booing, that’s their prerogative, I care about the violence, homophobic slurs, spitting, etc) were wrong and inexcusable.</p>
<p>I am glad, however, that other cadets reined in the participants eventually, and that the school apologized. I will give credit where it is due.</p>
<p>Paragraph from the Princetonian quoting the PUB Band Director"</p>
<p>The influx of Princeton students on The Citadel campus, he said, may have made the cadets “kind of territorial.” He added that the cadets may have been intimidated because “they usually don’t play schools of the caliber of Princeton.”</p>
<p>Based on the outcome of 37-24 Citadel, I wouldn’t think The Citadel would be all that impressed with the caliber Princeton.</p>
<p>I’d hope that Princeton isn’t able to intimidate the future military officers of our nation. If they do, then we’ll be getting run out of Iraq, not leaving on our own. Princeton - not that intimidating.</p>
<p>father05 - Citadel, not so honorable either. Future military officers should maybe be held at higher standard? Spitting, name calling, breaking other people’s property, is that a behavior of an officer and a gentleman? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>While The Citadel is a military school and a Senior Military College - military service is not required of the graduates (unless they have a ROTC commitment).
I believe only about 50% go active duty after graduation.</p>
<p>They are being held to a higher standard - they will/are being punished much more than had they been students at a civilian school.</p>
<p>It would be rather ignorant to make rash judgments of our military officers (not to mention the majority of cadets at the Citadel) and soldiers who are fighting in Iraq bases on a couple of kids hot-headed actions. This is also probably why 18-20 year olds are not Officers.</p>
<p>For an insightful view of life at the Citadel….as well as a wonderful college “coming of age” story….read Pat Conroy’s autobiography “My Loosing Season”. Although written about a Citadel experience during the 1960’s….I’m sure there are certain aspects of the honor code and life of a cadet there that haven’t changed that much. </p>
<p>“The Lords of Discipline” was his novel that “banned” Conroy from the campus for many years.</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly agree with JustaMomof4 in post #51. They were hot-heads, and it was not the entire student body. The President of the Citadel said this:
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<p>To me, he recognized publicly that those cadets hurt the reputation of the college and that the cadets were going to be taught that what they had done was wrong. I am guessing there will be punishments doled out as well.</p>
<p>Speaking of Texas A&M…in the early 80’s there was an incident where an “Officer of the Day”, a Corps member on the sidelines, told the SMU cheerleaders to get off the football field (a memorial also, and yes, I know the opposing band and football team go on it, but that’s the rule and the opposing teams are well aware of it). An SMU cheerleader snuck up behind the Corps member and got down on his hands and knees and another cheerleader came up and shoved the Corps member who fell backwards over the first cheerleader. The Corps member got up and drew and brandished his (ornamental) saber. The Corps member was dismissed from the Corps of Cadets and suspended for the semester. He was not unprovoked, yet drawing his saber was inappropriate. My S1 is now a senior at Texas A&M who wears a saber and they are required to keep them tied in to the scabbard somehow so that they cannot draw them.</p>
<p>It’s unfortunate, but sometimes it takes incidents such as these to teach young people the limits of appropriate behavior.</p>
<p>In the 70’s I remember a brouhaha when the Rice U. band formed a fire hydrant and said some things to mock Texas A&M’s mascot, a collie named Reveille. There was an altercation between the band and a couple of students afterwards and it made the news. The next year at the A&M game, Rice’s band formed a vanilla wafer so they wouldn’t cause any trouble. I thought that was pretty funny.</p>
<p>College kids do stupid things.</p>
<p>This is 2nd hand from a student. The fault lies with the Citadel Admin. They knew what the PUB planned, where & when.</p>
<p>Who would schedule a “Field Day” knowing what would be transpiring?</p>
<p>The Cadets participating in the FD were mainly knob and 3rd years (freshman/sophmore). The Knobs have been “torn down” to become a working group of “one”. They are just basically one month into their year of HELL.</p>
<p>Now the Avenue of Remeberence is very special to the school. Every name of every Cadet who has died while serving their country is recognized. Knobs are not allowed to walk the street or sidewalk here but the gutter, 3rd years have just been awarded this priviledged. Princeton frats can relate to this I’m sure in some form.</p>
<p>Now placed someone who is in their eyes being disrespectful to their campus and traditions there will only be one outcome.</p>
<p>Both groups should have conducted themselves as adults but we are talking about 17-18 year olds. Who by alrights are “young, dumb and stupid” and are supposed to learn from their mistakes. Yes, Ivy that includes you. </p>
<p>I too was a band member during college. Sorry but we did not offend our rivals when on their campus. Guess things have changed.</p>
<p>So Citadel Admin. think you can own up to YOUR mistake and making your Cadets look bad?</p>
<p>Shame where were the Southern Gentlemen? The one I raised did not participate but saw what was coming before it happened.</p>
<p>Please do not make snide unkind remarks about my heritage I am a southern american from Florida who knows how to property cast a voting ballot. Well election time is coming.</p>
<p>FlaMom</p>
<p>Both sides sound like they were in the wrong. You should not disrespect an opponent’s school, and the cadets overreacted by quite a bit.</p>
<p>I also get the feeling that there is MUCH more surrounding this story. Often, there are MANY comments made off the record which contribute to these things. I have had ROTC students visiting the AF academy tell me that (apparently unlike cadets here) they “actually had to work to get their pilot slot.” There were about half a dozen USAFA cadets around, and you could feel the atmosphere change…and not for the better! I have a feeling there is much more to this story than the editors know.</p>
<p>Those who go looking for trouble will usually find it.</p>
<p>I agree with raimius that there must have been MUCH more going on than has been made public. It’s inconceivable that a visiting band would be attacked (that is a fair representation, right?) for merely walking down a street, no matter what reverence the street was held in. That said, it’s simply inappropriate to act rudely toward guests. I’m sure most of the cadets would agree that “We’re better than that.” </p>
<p>Here’s the bottom line: You want to treat your guests in a manner that you’re honored when your guests say “Be assured you’ll get the same when you come to our place.” That’s certainly not the case here, unfortunately. Wet buckets of spit thrown on those lovely cadet uniforms? Who wants that?</p>
<p>I love this proclivity to try to somehow even out the blame.</p>
<p>I frankly do not care for the President’s response (it praises his student body when it should be sanctioning it). </p>
<p>As a decorated veteran of two tours of duty, who served while in his teens (same age as these ‘gentlemen’), I do not want someone who would spit on a fellow American serving in my military. Such a person is not fit to lead.</p>
<p>Unless the college president kicks some people out of the school, I will never look upon the Citadel with the same respect that I held for it prior to this incident.</p>
<p>NewHope, as for it being inconceivable that a visiting band would have this happen without wrongful conduct on their part,… why don’t you follow, say, the Michigan band as it marches prior to the Ohio State game (or the other way around)?</p>
<p>Now, I’ve seen this happen as kids are playing their instruments, in formation and in uniform, and the home team drunks say the most horrible things to them. Vile and disgusting. No “two sides” to that story, and I’ve seen it many times.</p>
<p>You don’t know that they have not been expelled. Nor will you know, unless they go public. I am sure there will be a hearing. The offending Cadets will go before a board and be required to answer questions concering their actions. They may not take “the 5th”. Military schools have very strict rules laid out and punishments for breaking those rules. I think this would lead to a very harsh punishment - if not expulsion then restriction for a very long time and marching many hours.<br>
Contrast that with a similar offense at a civilian school - there will be a hearing and the offending student may choose not to speak, if found innocent the student will be on his merry way back to class.</p>
<p>I do think it is impossible to judge the nuances of any incident by reading two reports in the media. The media rarely tells the whole story and nothing but the story of which there are always two sides.<br>
While I believe something happened on both sides and that the actions by a FEW of The Citadels cadets appear grievious - I will withhold judgment on any punishment.</p>
<p>While I don’t condone the actions by the cadets, I do think one should “know” their audience. If you want to be funny then be funny - don’t go into someone’s home and hurl insults when you know they will not have a sense of humor. I don’t think you can compare Mich St and Ohio who have been rivals for years - I get the trash talking.<br>
Princeton crossed the line when they made fun of and laughed at - as opposed to laughing with them.</p>
<p>I don’t understand all this marching band nonsense - I flew into Birmingham last fall and it was coincidentally homecoming at Alabama. The visiting team’s marching band stayed at a hotel in Birmingham and got a state police escort to Tuscaloosa. The Marching Band!</p>