Princeton Eating Clubs Article

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>It’s difficult to know where to begin (or end?) with you, posterX, and you’re making it much too easy. </p>

<p>I see that Silly Puddy has already referenced what you left out when you quoted the Yale website, but here it is in full: (You really should be a little less selective in your citations next time as it would give you more credibility.)</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/financial_aid/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/financial_aid/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Let’s go over this again slowly. (This is really just an elaboration of what Silly Puddy has already written above so please accept my apologies if it's redundant.)</p>

<p>You made the claim that Yale and Columbia are far and away the most socio-economically diverse universities in the Ivy League. A good measure of economic diversity is the one the university financial aid offices use themselves, i.e. the percentage of undergraduates they deem deserving of need-based aid. For Yale, that figure is 41% to 42%. The 63% that Yale is referring to contains the additional 22% of students who are not lower income and were not found to deserve need-based aid. These 22% were the ones who received no help from Yale but won merit based scholarships, took out commercial family loans or have work-study jobs that were not granted because of financial need. The point is that these additional 22% are NOT lower income students. I'm sure Silly Puddy would be happy to be more detailed if you need it. So would I.</p>

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<p>Oh posterX, come now; to this, all I can say is that you’re being more than a little hypocritical here aren’t you? As I (and anyone else who reads CC) knows from your many posts you’re a great believer in numbers when they appear to show some advantage for Yale. The ‘numbers’ we’re reviewing here are not measured differently and that’s the very reason for the Common Data Set forms which allow fair comparisons among multiple institutions because of the specificity of the form. </p>

<p>So, allow us to ask you this. </p>

<p>If you don’t trust the ‘numbers’ reported by the universities themselves (including your own alma mater, Yale), then on what do you base your claim about the superior diversity of your alma mater’s student body? (By the way, I’m certainly not suggesting that Yale is a place lacking in diversity. I’m simply objecting to your totally unfounded and unsupported claims that it is more diverse than its peers. The evidence actually suggests it is slightly less economically diverse and about equal to its peers in ethnic diversity.)</p>

<p>So, back to you, posterX. I reiterate my agreement about the importance of visiting schools. Are you ready now to back off from your unsupported claims or at least admit that they are nothing more than personal opinions?</p>

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<p>As a current student at Princeton, I have a bit of experience in relating about what it's like. You simply can't debate eating clubs with statistics. Let's look at what it's actually like through the eyes of students.</p>

<p>As a disclaimer, I'm not a member of a club, but I eat in the clubs routinely - at least three times a week at both sign in and bicker clubs. I'm frequently guested in by friends, and on occasion I just walk in and join my friends when there's no mealchecking (some clubs simply don't care, and many people are just lazy about the whole meal exchange system). In terms of bicker clubs, I've actually participated in the bicker process and frequented the clubs during party nights. So that's what I know. Take it with a grain of salt if you want.</p>

<p>To address some of the concerns about the eating clubs, I will go out and say this: they are definitely real.</p>

<p>It's true that the eating clubs are pervasive. With about 75% of students joining a club, it's hard when you're not part of the system but your friends are. At Princeton there is a sizeable group of people who simply do not care about the street and live happily in independent housing. There are also some people who have many friends at the street. By junior year, you'll see your friends much less than before if you're not in the same club or part of the street system. The University is trying to remedy that with the four year colleges, as well as giving all upperclassmen three meals a week in the dining halls. This allows anyone to eat with anyone else. Before then, those who were not part of the street had to count on their friend's four or so guest meals every month as the only opportunities to eat. Not eating everyday with your old friends is hard to get used to at first, so it takes a proactive effort to eat weekly meals with them. It used to be me calling them, but now they call me up on a regular basis to plan meals.</p>

<p>There's definitely a divide in the clubs. There was a recent New York Observer article published about the street. Those characterizations are largely true. Simply put, people prefer spending time with people who are similar. Clubs, whether bicker or sign-in, all have their cliques. Cliques and greek societies are a way of getting into clubs -- no one on campus disputes that football guys overwhelmingly prefer TI and Cottage, SAE frat boys like Ivy, and Triangle kids pack into Tower. Even Colonial, a sign-in club, has plenty of Asian cliques, and Charter is known for a strong engineering and band contingent. I hate to stereotype, but it's pretty to make an accurate guess which guys and girls will bicker which clubs within a few weeks of school. After three years and countless nights at the street, you learn that like attracts like. (Just an note: club populations do evolve, but they do so over longer periods of time. Within four years I haven’t seen much change, but talking to older alums from years before me show that club compositions definitely evolve).</p>

<p>As an RA at Princeton, my main qualm with the club system is that some people figure out the street immediately and become obsessed with it. Social climbers and children of the well-off immediately notice that bicker clubs overwhelmingly possess prettier, richer, and more party-hard types. Thus within a few weeks of orientation, the newness of Princeton wears out and you see the cliques already forming. Kids try for the next three semesters working on getting into these clubs. Sure, there are plenty who don't care too much, but there's a sizeable contingent who do. People are devastated when they don't get into a club, and it's even worse when all your roommates or your best friend does. I've talked to students who think that their social lives are ruined because they didn't get into a club. As these students enter junior year, they face conflicting feelings and pressures about re-bickering a club. Oftentimes, they’re forced to live through rejection again, since fall bicker acceptance rates are quite low. </p>

<p>Some bicker clubs have tried to make their bicker process more egalitarian and less degrading, but I can attest that it’s only a mild improvement. Tower Club has led the way with positive bicker, which means that no negative comments are made about bickerees during the discussion process. However, even the best rules cannot eliminate internal bias, and I’ve seen several questionable incidents regarding the bicker process to raise an eyebrow at. Among the Asian American community, more and more are actually bickering, but the rate of admittance remains far below that of Caucasians. Is it overt racism? Probably not. But like it or not, these clubs have an image to consider, and oftentimes a large Asian population is not in line with their image. I’ll leave it at that.</p>

<p>Now that I'm a senior, I've found that another major barrier to joining eating clubs is economic. I have several friends quitting eating clubs because the money is beyond them. Yes, Princeton has upped the financial aid, but the prospect of dropping out altogether at saving $5000 is just too tempting for those struggling to pay for college. I never joined a club because of my financial circumstances. Even with the increased financial aid now, it's not worth it for me to pay $5000 as an RCA to get 10 meals a week and a place to party. Senior year also comes into play too - many people express fatigue with the street as early as junior year, and many seniors slowly drift away from the street to work on theses or party with those closer to their age. Not surprisingly, a high percentage of students who quit or do not join clubs are low-income and minority.</p>

<p>Princeton's eating clubs arent all bad, however. This is definitely not meant to push people away from Princeton, or not apply at all. There's always free beer, some great parties, and even getting into a lot of the bicker clubs only requires knowing some members who will give you passes. The sign-in clubs are all open every Thursday and Saturday, and all it takes is an ID to get in and start partying. In this way, it's no different (and possibly better) than many frat systems at other universities. One needs to just party there, have fun, and accept that the bicker process should never serve as an objective evaluation of the person you are. Shirley Tilghman is also taking a proactive, if not somewhat controversial stance, by pushing the four year college system, free dining hall meals, eating club financial aid, and integrating upperclassmen into the campus system again. It’s a good step for now, but it’ll certainly take many years before you see big changes. Despite not being in a club, I’ve had plenty of fun there in my last three years and will certainly leave with some great party memories.</p>

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<p>Thank you, Mzhang. I think this is a fair and balanced assessment and has merit coming from a current student. (By the way, my little statistics debate with posterX was about his wild claims regarding diversity rather than about the eating clubs.)</p>

<p>Like you, I didn’t belong to a club and, also like you, had no trouble eating and partying at them. I agree with some of your criticisms though I can honestly say I knew few people for whom the clubs were a life or death matter and, in my day, with the sole exception of Ivy, none was considered exclusive. There were cliques at that time too but, of course, they exist everywhere.</p>

<p>I think what people often fail to understand about the clubs is that their doors are regularly open. With half the clubs being sign-in there is no rite of passage and anyone can partake. The bicker clubs were not my thing but the process seemed to be pretty easy for my admittedly nerdy friends. There are some negative stories associated with bicker and I’ve heard that back in the 50s and earlier it was terrible. It was nothing like that during my day. I agree with you about seniors tending to spend less time on the Street except to eat. I’m not sure if it’s burnout on the socializing or just the need to spend more time on the senior thesis. You’ll have to report back to us this next year!</p>

<p>As I’ve said before, I have mixed feelings about the clubs. What I find dishonest and off-putting, however, are the gross exaggerations by people who have no actual experience on which to base their opinion and who deal in stereotypes and hyperbole.</p>

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<p>Great post, mzhang. You prove my point - that in order to understand the social life, you need to visit for 2-3 days and talk with as many students and professors as possible - because, presumably, a student visiting would run into people like you and would be interested in your accurate and balanced assessment of things (and would be able to experience and observe them for him/herself). And that same student would be able to do the exact same thing when visiting another school that had a very different system.</p>

<p>As far as financial aid goes, if you look through the records, you'll notice that the 55% figure at Princeton, before Princeton's reform initiative was announced just very recently, was actually 38%. It hovered around 38% for many years while Harvard, Yale, and Columbia's figures were in the 40s. The number suddenly jumped from 38% to 55% because of the way aid was calculated and distributed -- not because the composition of the entering class changed in any significant way. Again, these figures say nothing about diversity. (They also say nothing about the size of the grants people are actually getting, but that's not my point). Diversity is what happens when people of different groups interact with each other on a regular basis, at every meal, in every class: not when they have the same mailing address or college ring. To see what diversity means, as with my point above, you need to visit and see the impact that the very diverse layouts and institutions of each campus have on the amount and quality of interaction between disparate groups.</p>

<p>That's for you to decide. And that's why extensive visits to your top choices are so important.</p>

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<p>Can we stop throwing statistics around here? Having a 5% or 7% lower diversity rating means nothing.</p>

<p>I've visited HYP extensively before I came to Princeton. I still visit there every so often. I can assure you that no Ivy, no matter how liberal or integrated, boasts a magical dreamland where people of all colors mingle in harmony. Every school boasts self-separation.</p>

<p>Certain eating clubs at Princeton may exaggerate the problem, but after three years I realize the effects are rather minor. The recent financial aid initiative for eating clubs has had a huge impact on socioeconomic choices for joining clubs (there's visibly much less concern among students I talk to), and interaction among disparate groups occurs elsewhere anyways.</p>

<p>You might have visited for two or three days, but my assessment of the school then has changed after three years. I stayed overnight three times at Pton before deciding to come here, and had a fairly good grasp of the eating club system when I applied.</p>

<p>Honestly, I don't think Princeton's diversity is anything to worry about at all compared to the other Ivies. You'll find self-separation here but also plenty of interaction.</p>

<p>These are just three anecdotes, and there are many more I could tell.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>One Asian female friend became good friends with an officer in an "elite" bicker club sterotypically known for its white, souther contingent. She was happy in her sign in club, and is now independent because she wants to spend her money at restaurants around town instead.</p></li>
<li><p>Terrace, one of the typically "liberal" and hippy clubs known for its English majors, now boasts sizeable ethnic diversity as well as diverse member groups such as model UN.</p></li>
<li><p>I myself am able to maintain a diverse group of friends at eat at multiple clubs as week despite not being in the club system at all.</p></li>
<li><p>Triangle club elected its first black president this year, and the diversity of other clubs is only increasing. One female a cappella group is 1/3 asian now, the next PICSIM model UN tourney is on Africa, etc etc. </p></li>
<li><p>Gay asian friend sings with the largely black gospel ensemble, etc. etc.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Point in case is, by junior year everyone realizes theres a lot more out there than the club system. Activities definitely bring people together. Those who chose not to pursue diversity at Princeton probably wouldn't pursue it anyways were they at another school. So figures, percentages, and even two or three visits doesn't tell the full story.</p>

<p>Please, just let current and former students tell the story. If you want to debate, tell us about your college instead. Numbers are meaningless, since we all go through college having only experienced a tiny slice of the whole pie. Depending on how you slice it, you can get a non diverse experience at the most diverse of colleges, and a diverse experience at the least of colleges. As far as wanting diversity goes, if you want it Princeton has it.</p>

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<p>"I stayed overnight three times at Pton before deciding to come here"</p>

<p>Would you say that the extensive visits helped you make an informed decision? Or had you already pretty much made up your mind?</p>

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<p>Three nights gives you a pretty good sense of how the place works, yes. I applied ED though, and the decision was partly motivated by financial reasons. Guaranteed no debt and highly generous aid offers made me feel safe in applying.</p>

<p>I stayed over at Yale twice and it definitely wasn't diversity heaven either. There they have four year colleges, dining halls, better diversity stats, etc etc but people still divide up into groups and bond through their connections.</p>

<p>At Princeton, I was still surprised by the shift in lifestyle soph spring after most of my friends joined a club and I did not, but then I put it into perspective and realized it didn't matter in the larger scope of things.</p>

<p>By senior year, virtually everyone realizes that there's so much more to life and the Princeton experience than an eating club where you see the same people over again. That's why so many seniors have less enthusiasm for the street and instead just hang out with their close friends.</p>

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<p>"Even Colonial, a sign-in club, has plenty of Asian cliques,"</p>

<p>"Among the Asian American community, more and more are actually bickering,
but the rate of admittance remains far below that of Caucasians. Is it overt racism? Probably not. But like it or not, these clubs have an image to consider, and oftentimes a large Asian population is not in line with their image. I’ll leave it at that."</p>

<p>"- One Asian female friend became good friends with an officer in an
"elite" bicker club sterotypically known for its white, souther contingent.
She was happy in her sign in club, and is now independent because she wants to spend her money at restaurants around town instead."</p>

<p>From the above statements, I detect a lot of racial discrimination against Asians in general. I've heard that this is the norm in USA. Can you elaborate on this? </p>

<p>Do the rich kids actually mingle with the poor kids at Princeton? Are there
are more rich kids than poor kids or vice versa?</p>

<p>I'm asian and international and poor so I'll need some advice for this coming
Fall...</p>

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<p>Wealth doesn't really matter at Princeton for many people. I can assure you you won't find overt discrimination against Asians, and rich and poor kids certainly mingle.</p>

<p>The stories I gave were examples that both proved and disproved some of the eating club stories out there. They don't apply to the campus as a whole.</p>

<p>As an international student, you'll probably end up knowing a very diverse group of people, both socioeconomically and racially. International students definitely have their own own community at Princeton that's pretty close-knit.</p>

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<p>as mzhang seems to be the only current student posting (I think?), I thought I'd throw in a little of my experiences (I'm a rising sophomore).</p>

<p>I grew up in a college town with a big state school in my backyard, attended mostly by white middle-class kids from the surrounding area. Very few graduates from my high school ever leave town. So contrary to what many people on this forum are apparently claiming, the very first thing that struck me about Princeton was its incredible diversity.</p>

<p>My freshman year I was assigned to a six-person suite in the now-defunct Butler quad. Of the six girls, I was the only caucasian american. We had a Latina from Texas, a Taiwanese-American from California, a Black girl from near-Mexico Texas who was born in Montreal, and a girl from west coast Canada. My actual roommate within the suite was from Beijing. Our interests are as diverse as our geography-- music, rugby, japanese, rowing, theater, volunteering, global issues forum, and much more. Our majors? Philosophy, ORFE, Anthropology, Chemistry, MAE, and a Woody Woo hopeful. One engineer, one premed, one both (?!?!?). And THAT is just six girls in one suite in one dorm (Incidentally, we are ALL living together next year).</p>

<p>My first month in Princeton, I met people from Finland, Mexico, Japan, New Zealand, Peru, Guatemala, Australia, England, Guam, Canada, Lebanon, Germany, Turkey, and many many more countries. I have friends in ALL socioeconomic classes-- those who can afford to fly home for the weekend, and those who (like me) need to work two jobs just to meet their earnings requirement. I have friends of many different political beliefs, religious affiliations, and cultural backgrounds; friends with many interests that span the extensive range offered by active and passionate students and an administration I have found to be extremely attuned to the feelings of the student body.</p>

<p>That said, people do tend to self-segregate into racial groups. There is little to no discrimination-- I've never witnessed any-- but for some reason the black kids sit together in the dining halls, the internationals all hang out together, the latinos are very close-knit. Asians (both East and South) do this to some degree, but there are so many of them that it's rare to see a group of students without at least a few. Anyway, if you want diversity, you can find it here.</p>

<p>A word on the eating clubs--
I'm not a huge party person and don't go out much. I don't drink and I'm a horrible dancer :) But when I do go out, I have no trouble at all getting into both bicker and nonbicker clubs. posterx's statement that "you have nowhere to go on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights" if you don't get in is simply not true. First of all, it makes me question the authenticity of posterX's information since anyone who knows Princeton very well would know that there is very little partying on Friday nights. Also, many people (especially freshmen and sophomores) hop from club to club rather than staying at their own club the whole night. One really good thing about the eating clubs is that it localizes the party scene, all on one Street. There's virtually no room partying (or if there is, it's almost always just pregaming for the Street), and if you live in sub-free housing, you hopefully won't be disturbed by people coming back from the Street at 3am.</p>

<p>I wish you all would, as mzhang put it, "stop throwing statistics around." PosterX, please stop making posts like you have extensive experience at Princeton as you clearly do not. At first it was a harmless debate between you and PtonGrad, but now you are misleading prospective students and that really bothers me. Albert87, please feel free to contact me with any other questions that you have. and mzhang-- thanks for giving a good perspective on what it's really like. looking forward to listening to the 'soons at next year's arches!</p>

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<p>could someone please post another link to the article? The first one's not working</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.observer.com/node/36783%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.observer.com/node/36783&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>also, check out joe zipkin's (class of '07) letter to the editor:
<a href="http://www.observer.com/node/37212%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.observer.com/node/37212&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>he sums up the way a lot of us feel about that article-- whether you support bicker or not, the article was in very poor taste.</p>

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<p>Actually, the NYtimes had an article on it:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/education/edlife/princeton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/education/edlife/princeton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>The whole eating club debate is just kind of silly, especially as it's usually being discussed by people who haven't really experienced Princeton's social life. The fact is, most people at Princeton are very happy: some people are into the Street, some aren't, and that's ok...</p>

<p>Princeton is an extremely diverse place: we're all from different states with different life goals; we all play different sports and have different ideas of fun... If being a member of a club isn't for you, you can still go to any of the clubs with your friends. And joining one club doesn't mean you don't go to parties at the others; it's just where you eat your meals! You still go to parties at all the clubs with your friends...</p>

<p>Joining an eating club is having a place on campus where you belong: everyone gravitates toward their favorite... They're the 150 or so people that you feel most comfortable with on campus... It's not like a frat or sorority where you rush at the beginning of freshman year; by the time you join a club you're well aware of your decision and you're likely head-over-heels for your club... Better still, by the time bicker is over you've likely met most of the members you'd never met before... The end result is that Junior and Senior year you have somewhere to eat all your meals where you can sit at any table with anyone and know everyone there... You have a beautiful house to hang out in, with libraries and computer rooms to do homework, and yards where in the fall and spring people lounge around playing beerfriz and wiffle ball...</p>

<p>There isn't a pecking order or anything with clubs... My two favorite places to hang out are my bicker club and a sign-in club where I would have been equally happy had I not gotten into mine...</p>

<p>I know the eating club system is a big worry to people and a concern for those choosing a college... Trust me, there's a place for everyone at this school, it's not a scary system; there's ALWAYS something to do for everyone!</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com:8080/images/graphics/2008/02/11/cartoon_bickeratthermopylae-large.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com:8080/images/graphics/2008/02/11/cartoon_bickeratthermopylae-large.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I actually really enjoyed the eating clubs on my recruiting trip last week. I spent time in the bicker clubs and had a really fun time. Now I'm a committed athlete :)</p>

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<p>Tell me what sport you play and I'll try to guess which club you went to. :D</p>

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<p>People outside of Princeton, generally the media, tend to harp on the eating clubs because it sells newspapers and magazines. They're feeding into public hysteria of bashing things they don't know about. HALF of the eating clubs are nonselective! Also, as a matter of advice, you will be able to stick with your friends. Even in the worst-case scenario where you don't get in sophomore spring with your friends, they'll get you in in the fall if they are your friends. Being a sophomore member has very limited benefit, anyway. If the club is generous, you get only two meals a week for that semester, so it's not a big deal not being in the club your friends are in for sophomore spring.</p>

<p>Remember, depending on the kind of person you are, you might not even bicker in the first place.</p>

<p>Also: There's an outdated perception that Ivy is the most "prestigious." In the sense that it's the most old-money, then yes it is. However, it hasn't had the most stringent acceptance rate the past two years, and possibly not even the second most stringent either of those two years.</p>

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<p>Tower was the most selective on the basis of acceptance rate (less than 50%). Ivy was the most selective in terms of total new members taken (around 65 compared to 100+ for Tower).</p>

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<p>I like to explain eating clubs as "privatized dining halls" where you also hang out with your friends. I know it isn't a perfect analogy, but it certainly can help dispel some of the prejudices and notions about eating clubs prospective students have.</p>