Princeton ED or Harvard EA?!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
21

<p>Eric,</p>

<p>The pronounced skew in cross-admit choosing Harvard is due to the brand name. If you don't care about that, then, the issue is what you prefer. If you like lawns and quiet and people acting like you matter a priori, choose Princeton. If you like stoplights, and wandering a city, and fighting for what you want, take Harvard. Very simple. The poster on this board with the most preternaturally gifted kid, says that academically, the school are equal in math. So if you are good enough, you can just choose the environment you prefer, knowing that academically, they are equivalent.</p>

<p>Buddy, this may be the first time that your innate gifts bring you choice in the world of adults and resources. </p>

<p>Enjoy.</p>

22

<p>My S was also a prospective math/physics major and his top two choices were Princeton and Harvard. One of the factors he considered was where he would like to go to grad school. He reasoned that it was very likely he would end up somewhere in Cambrdige MA for grad school, so he thought it would be nice to spend his undergraduate years somewhere else. As I said before, you can't go wrong with either one in terms of the quality of the education you will receive.</p>

<p>It's unfortunate you can't visit, because this is really an individual preference choice. Other factors my S considered was that he loved the Food Clubs and he said he didn't want to have to dodge traffic to get to class.</p>

<p>What does "preternaturally" mean?</p>

23

<p>Harvard's "name" has been earned over time. As Fiske notes, "Harvard is the benchmark against which all other colleges are compared." It continues to draw the top students from around the world who have a choice. Often the main attraction - other than the school's location in what Fiske calls "the ultimate college town" - is the guaranteed presence of other top students. </p>

<p>Many love the excitement and challenge this provides. A great place for the able, the ambitious and the self-confident. Those lacking these qualities should look elsewhere.</p>

<p>Again quoting Fiske: " Admission here opens the door to a world of intellectual wonder, academic challenges, and faculty minds unmatched in the United States - but then drops the students on the threshold... It is only the most motivated and dedicated student who can take full advantage of the Harvard experience. Others who attempt to drink from the school's perennially overflowing cup of knowledge may find themselves drowning in its depths."</p>

24

<p>But Byerly, what is so remarkably different about the Harvard experience and the Princeton experience?
What is the difference between the student body of Harvard and that of Princeton?
Those are the questions I want answered.</p>

<p>I am leaning towards Princeton, and the only couple of things my dad is telling me to consider is that the Early Action of Harvard could possibly allow me to visit Harvard and Princeton (if I get into both of them) early next year and see for myself, and that Harvard is still the more prestigious school, you might see Harvard and Yale, or Harvard and Yale and Princeton, or Harvard Yale and Stanford, or Harvard and Oxbridge, but Harvard is always in there.
And maybe that means something, or maybe it doesn't.</p>

<p>And how much of a metropolitan city is Boston?
And how much of a small town is Princeton?
And is there something to draw from the fact that the satisfaction level of Harvard is much worse than that of Princeton?
And does applying Early Decision likely to reduce the amount of financial aid I get, since I am committed to attend?</p>

25

<p>all good questions. i'll address just a couple:</p>

<p>"And how much of a small town is Princeton?"</p>

<p>the university website describes it as a town of "approximately 30,000 residents." money magazine's profile has the population at 48,700. that magazine actually just ranked princeton as america's 15th best place to live, out of 1,300 contender cities. words that describe the town well include "charming" and "upscale." it's also extremely safe (personal crime index = 6, where national average = 100). parents love it, but students often complain about the lack of inexpensive, student-oriented stores. all the stores they could want, however, are reachable by car on route 1, a major highway nearby that's lined with pharmaceutical company headquarters, shopping malls, movie theaters, and the like. remember, too, that new york and philadelphia are both just an hour away by train, and the train is accessible from right on campus. many people, myself included, think the small town setting with easy access to major cities is an ideal setting.</p>

<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/40706.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/40706.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"And does applying Early Decision likely to reduce the amount of financial aid I get, since I am committed to attend?"</p>

<p>it's hypothetically possible, but i strongly doubt it at a place like princeton, which is so transparent and so generous with aid. princeton offers an early estimator calculator on its website, where you can get an early estimate of the aid that you'd receive. if you were for some reason awarded less, you could always appeal to them on the basis of that difference. if they want you (and they would, if they admitted you), they'll make every effort to ensure that you can attend. hope that helps.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/admission-aid/aid/prospective/estimator/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/main/admission-aid/aid/prospective/estimator/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

26

<p>Don't worry a moment about prestige. Although you are correct that the average person will recognize the name "Harvard" more than the name "Princeton", you have no reason to care. </p>

<p>You seem bound for graduate school in math or physics. The faculty at the graduate schools to which you will apply will be very interested in how you did in college, and not at all interested in whether you went to Harvard or to Princeton. Once you get your final degree, the people who will hire you will care about what you did in graduate school, not whether you went to H or P. </p>

<p>On the other hand </p>

<p>"whereas Harvard is proud of its tradition (it of course should be) a little too much and isn't really innovative and exciting place where things are happening"</p>

<p>Is not fair. Harvard is moving forward as fast as it can. Both places are terrific. Look, do not torture yourself trying to figure out which is better. There is no answer. These are two of the best universities in the world, and differences in overall academic quality are far too small to be meaningful. If you really want to focus on this, look over the research being done by the faculty at each school in your areas of interest. </p>

<p>Lifestyle might matter if you plan to ever leave the library. Harvard is, as others have said, much bigger, more urban, louder, faster, and more crowded. Princeton is a more typical American college life, with a well defined campus tucked off by itself, smaller, quieter, and with a social life that revolves around the campus moreso than at Harvard.</p>

<p>You cannot possibly go wrong with either one, but if you are that undecided, then EA is better than ED, since you still have a chance to make up your mind.</p>

27

<p>"Your stats are way off"</p>

<p>Take it up with Harvard, which submitted these numbers to the feds. They are not "my" stats.</p>

28

<p>But you are the one who misinterprets them and fails to understand what they represent. To argue that the Harvard undergrads have to "share" faculty with the students at the medical school or the business school, both located in Boston and having totally separate faculties, or with any other professional - as opposed to <em>graduate</em> school - is either ignorant, dishonest or both.</p>

29

<p>Woah, woah.
Getting a bit heated up here.</p>

<p>Anyways, would chucking in my interests of philosophy and music help deciding?
Philosophy, I am interested in quite a bit, and music is more of a hobby for me.
Are they both pretty good in those areas too?</p>

<p>Regards
Eric</p>

30

<p>Both are great in philosophy. So that does not help. </p>

<p>I don't know about music. If you mean "studying music as an academic field" then you can look up the strengths of the program. Since it is not your primary interest, I assume only large differences would matter. Perhaps some people on CC can help. </p>

<p>If you mean "playing music for my own enjoyment and going to musical performances", then Harvard's location in Cambridge and across the river from Boston will offer many more opportunities.</p>

<p>Byerly- facts are facts. Take it up with Harvard. I copied and pasted their numbers, sorry you don't like them. Now that you have insulted me, did the numbers change?</p>

31

<p>"Facts" are not "Facts" in this case, since the numbers you site have nothing whatsoever to do with the sharing of faculty between undergraduate and <em>graduate</em>students. </p>

<p>Translation for your benefit: <em>graduate</em> students do NOT include students at free-standing professional schools, and the evening extension school, who do NOT share the same faculty.</p>

32

<p>If you don't like the numbers, take it up with Harvard. I assume they know how many students they have.</p>

<p>"<em>graduate</em> students do NOT include students at free-standing professional schools"</p>

<p>Nonsense. They get Harvard graduate degrees.</p>

<p>Hmm... you are agitated, but the numbers still have not changed. Larry must not know how much you care.</p>

33

<p>Eric, since you appear new to this board, let me explain what will happen, and hence my first post. Things will start with persons providing useful, value-neutral information. Soon, a comment will be made. Byerly, as he has probably done a thousand times before, will make the argument that since students who have the choice of attending Harvard and another institution choose in large percentages to attend Harvard, this must mean that Harvard is superior. He will talk about the prestige of the Harvard brand and its world renown and defend Harvard against accusations that it is not undergraduate friendly. He will largely ignore the arguments by posters who speak about the surveys that consistently show that Princeton undergraduates are more satisfied with their institution than Harvard undergraduates. He will question that data showing Princeton alumni are significantly more likely to contribute to their alma mater and support it in other ways. He will praise Princeton as a fine institutions while always finding ways to compare it unfavorably to Harvard. Words will become heated. Tempers will flare. By page 5 of this post, things will descend to which institution serves better tacos and which one has more living octogenarian alumni. So it has always been and so it appears, it will always be. The truth is the number of students who actually will have the opportunity to be admitted to both institutions is small and the number who will regret their choice is even smaller. Take a look at F. Scottie’s and Byerly’s links, watch bemused as the posts move into the realm of the surreal and make a choice - you’re not likely to go wrong either way.</p>

34

<p>Thank you PDaddy, back on subject.</p>

<p>You cannot possibly go wrong academically at either place, they are two of the top in the world in your areas of interest. For this reason, you are unlikely to find an academic reason to favor one over the other. </p>

<p>However, you should look closely at lifestyle. Here again, it is meaningless to say one is better, but they are certainly different. You will not suffer at either place, but your experience as an undergrad will depend on Harvard houses, the evolution of Princeton's eating clubs, the differences between Cambridge and Princeton as towns, proximity to MIT, etc.</p>

35

<p>Another rather dull Princeton versus Harvard thread. </p>

<p>Byerly versus the assembled Defenders of Princeton. </p>

<p>Debating the merits of Princeton, NJ to Cambridge, MA seems like a meaningless exercise. Both are elitist New England towns dominated by institutions of higher learning. </p>

<p>Harvard's name gets it the lion's share of the cross-admits, not anything else, so let's be realistic.</p>

36

<p>Here is an interesting tidbit: casualty reports from the cross admit wars, circa 1985. Young Zephyr may find it interesting!</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=227689%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=227689&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(Plus le changes, plus ce la meme chose!)</p>

37

<p>By lifestyle being quite different, is it just that Cambridge is bigger than Princeton, and is right next to Boston anyways, and has several other universities around, and it has more people than Princeton; whereas Princeton is pretty much self-contained, in a small upper-class town, and one hour away from New York and Philadelphia?
What else is there?</p>

38

<p>Yeah, that's sort of it... I think Princeton kids are better at creating their own social lives because they don't live within walking distance of a big city, like Harvard kids. The eating clubs are so good at providing a social life, though, between parties, concerts, and everything else. The Princeton kids have a more cohesive social life (as in everybody parties together), whereas Harvard kids don't need that because they can just wander into Cambridge/Boston and do stuff there. They have parties too, but it's not like the whole campus attends.</p>

<p>At least, that's my impression...</p>

39

<p>Thanks koala and everyone.</p>

<p>It comes down to this.
From all I can see, from their video to the survey that Princeton students are generally more satisfied than Harvard students, from Princeton to Cambridge/Boston, and all else, I think I prefer Princeton.
So as of now, if I was admitted to both, I would choose Princeton.
However, of course I don't know.
These things are pretty hard to get a feel of through just some photos and websites.
So if I was very confident that I'll get into both of these, then it'd only make sense to apply early to Harvard and regular to Princeton, then visit them next year and finally decide.
But of course I am not confident, nobody really is, right?
In which case, since applying early undeniably increases the chance of getting admitted, suppose I get in early to Harvard and not into regular Princeton.
And when I visit, my current feeling turns out to be fairly accurate and I prefer Princeton.
Then I'd feel like a fool!
But then if I apply early to Princeton, and suppose I get in.
I have no freedom to actually check them out for myself and choose, because I have no choice but to go.</p>

<p>So then although I really hate to do this again, I can't help but ask for a few people's opinions on my chances.</p>

<p>No SAT results out yet, sat SAT Reasoning Test a week ago and sitting SAT Subject Tests in November.
I guess I would get somewhere around 750 C.R., 750 W, 800 M.
800 physics, 800 math II, 800 chemistry (just because NZ's curriculum seems to be much more advanced)
No formal ranking but pretty sure valedictorian out of about 120 graduation class size.
Immigrant from Korea to New Zealand in 1998, all my education since in English.
I guess my 'hook' is the International Mathematical Olympiad bronze medal.
I won various other mathematics competitions/awards at national and international level.
Took a General Mathematics course that is for 1st year university students, and currently taking Linear Algebra, Quantum Physics, and Electricity and Magnetism papers aimed for 2nd year university students here.
Also took a paper called Ethics, Law, and Religion in a Secular Society, a freshman course as a distance learning thing (1st year uni paper).
A member of the New Zealand Schools Delegation to The Hague International Model United Nations.
Representative of my school (regioinal winners) and the region in debating in the last 3 years.
Top Student in NZ for Calculus Scholarship exam last year.
And other random things like being the Academic Pillar Head Prefect at my school, being picked as one of two NZ students last year selected by the Royal Society of New Zealand to attend the USA International Space Camp, other various involvements that are not particularly interesting like playing in a social rugby team at school, and preparing for the Dip.ABRSM in piano performance.</p>

<p>I think I can get pretty good references, since in this small town Christchurch, I am thought of as a big deal.
Essays, well I'd like to think that I can and will write pretty good essays, but of course I can't really judge the worth of my own writing.
But readers thought that the personal statement I wrote for Trinity College of Cambridge Uni. was pretty moving.</p>

<p>I definitely need a lot of financial aid, and would like to study maths and physics, with a bit of philosophy.
I guess I am likely to go right through to PhD. at some stage and hopefully become a research professor or something (getting a bit too far ahead of myself there)</p>

<p>Can I be fairly confident here of getting into Harvard and Princeton early and regular, or should I play it safe and choose what I currently like, i.e. Princeton ED?</p>

<p>Thanks everyone for your help.
I really appreciate it.
Kind regards
Eric</p>

40

<p>Statistically, your odds of admission are greater if you apply to Princeton, whether ED or RD. </p>

<p>But on the other hand, your odds of admission to Harvard are far, far higher if you apply SCEA than if you apply RD.</p>

<p>Thus, unless you have a strong preference for Harvard, and are confident that your record will stand out, applying ED to Princeton makes strategic sense; it is the safer course of action.</p>

<p>Only you can judge, given your own abilities and interests, which strategy is right for you. But I would rely on solid factors and not soft factors in deciding, since studies have shown that most students will be happy with whatever choice they make. The concept of "fit" is greatly overrated, IMHO. </p>

<p>98% of Harvard matriculants graduate, and 97% of Princeton matriculants graduate. The graduates of each seem to do fairly well, though, again, statistics about admission rates to graduate schools are generally available for strategic guidance.</p>