<p>"Oh puhleeze" is a pretty weak and childish response.</p>
<p>If applying ED went as smoothly as you describe for your child, I'm happy for you, but for most it involves some complex decisionmaking. See Marian's post #27.</p>
<p>And as for it not being "torture," actually, when you're 17 and faced with these tough choices, it can be.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Thus, the list is set in stone by October 1, one month before the usual November 1 ED deadline.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, there goes the argument that Early Decision forces students to make their college selections before they have had time to do careful research.</p>
<p>As long as the lists are finalized by October 1st, what is the problem with mailing one of them by November 1st?</p>
<p>interesteddad said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Kid visits colleges. Kid really likes one the best. Kid determines that he or she is a plausible applicant to the college. Kid applies Early Decision. Kid gets acceptance letter on December 15 and enjoys the final months of high school with zero college application pressure.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here's an alternative scenario.</p>
<p>Kid visits colleges. Kid really likes one the best. Kid determines that admissions to this college are highly competitive, meaning that everyone's chances, including his, are quite low. Kid remembers the horror story about the guy from his high school last year who applied ED to Princeton and RD to Northwestern and was rejected by both, even though several less qualified classmates who applied ED to Northwestern were admitted. Kid doesn't even try for first-choice college but instead applies ED to a less selective college that he doesn't like quite as much. Kid gets acceptance letter on December 15 and enjoys the final months of high school with zero college application pressure but also with the uncertainty of never knowing whether he could have been admitted to the school he preferred.</p>
<p>As for the lists being finalized by October 1, that ONLY happens to kids who apply ED. The kids who apply RD only don't have to get those recommendation forms to the teachers until December 1 for January 1 deadlines. They have a little more time to think.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Early admission makes him better off even if he is rejected. After rejection, he can revise his pool of applications to other schools accordingly. In particular, he can focus his efforts on schools that are slightly below his first choice in the rankings, but good fits nonetheless. </p>
<p>This is nonsense, written by someone who hasn't been anywhere near a real high school guidance office lately. In the real world, high school guidance offices need weeks to process their portions of students' applications.
[/quote]
This is, fortunately, NOT nonsense in some schools. Our PHS being one. </p>
<p>Maybe because it is small. Maybe because it has excellent Guidance, focused intently on each student having the best possible college acceptance outcomes. Yes, our hs has deadlines for identifying which teachers will write your recommendations, for providing the Guidance Office your college list,etc. At our hs, the deadline for January applications is much closer to Christmas vacation than what you outline above, Marian. Giving students time to adjust, with the GC's careful help, if the ED/SCEA envelope is a skinny one. And we are fortunate, again maybe because our high school (a public) is small, that making the system work for the student is more important than making the student fit the system. So, exceptions are made when warranted.</p>
<p>Our students identify their recommenders at the end of <em>Junior</em> year, giving these teachers the summer to do a careful job of writing the recs. But the teachers have no need of a list "set in stone" by October or any other date. Those recs can be packaged by the Guidance Counselor into any application package that the student eventually decides to submit.</p>
<p>Were I a parent whose student was subjected to the "set in stone" approach at Marian's high school, I would be questioning who this is serving.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Oh puhleeze" is a pretty weak and childish response.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You would love some of the responses I considered before "oh, puhleeze."</p>
<p>
[quote]
If applying ED went as smoothly as you describe for your child, I'm happy for you, but for most it involves some complex decisionmaking.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Of course it involves some decision-making. Financial decisions. What is the aid offer likely to be based on the policies of the school and can we live with the aid offer?</p>
<p>Is there any reasonable expectation of an ED acceptance. Personally, I think it's a total waste of time to apply to an ED school unless the student is a plausible applicant with a legitimate shot at admissions (let's call it 50%/50%). </p>
<p>Has the follow-up overnight visit in October confirmed the first-choice status of the school? An ED application only makes sense if the student is truly sold on the college and ready to commit.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And as for it not being "torture," actually, when you're 17 and faced with these tough choices, it can be.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sure. Filling out the applications and writing essays is work. But, otherwise, I see nothing about the college selection process that has to be torture. There's an element of fun and excitement, as well -- exploring all the wonderful possibilities for the next four years.</p>
<p>jmmom, that's wonderful.</p>
<p>I wish the kids at our large suburban high school could get that kind of guidance.</p>
<p>interesteddad, you say that
[quote]
Personally, I think it's a total waste of time to apply to an ED school unless the student is a plausible applicant with a legitimate shot at admissions (let's call it 50%/50%).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is there ANYONE who has a 50/50 chance of admission to the country's top colleges, almost all of which accept less than 20% of applicants?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Kid visits colleges. Kid really likes one the best. Kid determines that admissions to this college are highly competitive, meaning that everyone's chances, including his, are quite low. Kid remembers the horror story about the guy from his high school last year who applied ED to Princeton and RD to Northwestern and was rejected by both, even though several less qualified classmates who applied ED to Northwestern were admitted. Kid doesn't even try for first-choice college but instead applies ED to a less selective college that he doesn't like quite as much. Kid gets acceptance letter on December 15 and enjoys the final months of high school with zero college application pressure but also with uncertainty of never knowing whether he could have been admitted to the school he preferred.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would chalk that up to a failure on the part of the parents, high school, and guidance office to approach the whole process as one of finding good "fits" rather than maximizing admissions trophies like some kind of game.</p>
<p>IMO, schools with ridiculously low odds of admission for a given student should never even make it onto a list of favorites. If college lists are built properly -- focusing on solid matches with a mild reach and a stone cold safety -- then the issue you raise never comes up. To do otherwise, would be analagous to me putting the red Ferrari on my list when I go car shopping. I know I can't afford the Ferrari.</p>
<p>I know. The system is supposed to change to accomodate the "Ivy-or-bust" kids. But, honestly, if a parent and kid can't identify a specific reason that the student is likely to be admitted to a school (beyond high SAT scores), why bother?</p>
<p>Roscoe: How does your "dreaming" idea not involve tough choices? Why shouldn't 18 year olds, who can conceive children, operate machinery, go to prison for life as adult offenders, etc., not be asked to make some basic calculations? And they do, anyway: There will be a lot more strategy involved in RD applications with the ED and EA kids back in the hunt. Plus, for the vast, vast majority of kids, "dreaming" is dreaming of not having to worry about where the money is coming from, and of not having to make choices based on finances. That dream ain't coming true.</p>
<p>Marian: Not every school works that way. And, realistically, under the current system the number of kids who apply somewhere ED and get rejected is limited (I'm not talking about HYPS deferrals), so that even under a highly bureaucratic system there is probably some play in the joints to handle a few kids in crisis (not to mention the fact that colleges are usually perfectly willing to wait a few weeks for transcripts and teacher recommendations).</p>
<p>Mini: I am confused about why you keep saying that this will end "lick and a prayer" HYPS applications. I think this will encourage them. First, LAAP applicants don't generally apply in the EA round, because that would preclude them from making more realistic EA/ED applications. Everyone seems to accept that the EA applicants are generally more impressive than the RD applicants. But without EA/ED, LAAP applicants will both not have made more realistic choices already, and will believe that they have a better chance at admission because there are more places available.</p>
<p>Also, I don't believe LAAP applications are a significant problem. The schools themselves say that 80% of the applications they receive are fully qualified, and it doesn't take all that much attention to separate the wheat from the chaff at that level. There would be easy ways for the colleges to discourage LAAP applications: for example, they could come out and say that they won't consider applications with SATs below X without prior approval from an admissions officer (for artists, affirmative action, development, athletes, etc.). I doubt any of this relates to reducing the number of applications Harvard receives; in fact, I predict that if everyone ended EA/ED Harvard would probably get a couple thousand more applications, at least.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is there ANYONE who has a 50/50 chance of admission to the country's top colleges, almost all of which accept less than 20% of applicants?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sure. I can identify kids here on College Confidential who have a [roughly] 50%/50% chance of acceptance to any school you care to name. It's not that difficult if you:</p>
<p>a) take a dispassionate look at the stats for the "slots" for which the particular student is competing</p>
<p>b) what non-stat factors will attract the interest of that particular college.</p>
<p>For example, it was easy to predict that Curmudgeon's daughter had a 50%/50% shot a Yale last year. Not a sure bet, but a solid chance. There are many, many more College Confidential applicants to Yale (or Harvard), many with near perfect SAT scores, for whom it is very easy to predict that they have zero chance.</p>
<p>There were two Swarthmore ED applicants from College Confidential last year that I predicted had 100% chances of admissions: for very different reasons. Looking at the package of each applicant and their targetted slots, there was simply no way that Swarthmore would pass on the opportunity.</p>
<p>Binding Early Decision makes it somewhat easier to pin down the chances. Why? Because the standard becomes, "is this applicant as good as, or better than, what we will end up with for that slot after the yield shakes out in late May?" Therefore, knowledge about the enrolled freshman class becomes extremely relevant. And, you reduce the odds of going head-to-head with another oboe player.</p>
<p>Marian/interesteddad: I think if you look, there are many, many LACs that accept 50% of their ED pool, or close to it, and probably 100% of the well-qualified candidates in the pool. Princeton -- the most selective ED school out there -- accepts about 25% of its ED applicants, probably a little more when deferrals are taken into account, vs. less than 6% of its RD applicants (although I'm sure the ED number is inflated by athletes, etc.). If you are a normal, everyday incredibly smart kid who would like to go to Princeton, how do you NOT apply ED if you can afford it?</p>
<p>If anything, the kids who apply ED or EA to HYPS are the superqualified ones: They are confident that they will get into another good school, so they can afford (in more ways than one) to put in an early application with a less than 50% chance of success. For relatively rich kids, the current system does a pretty good job of getting themselves to sort themselves out. A student who knows HYPS is an impossibly long shot won't want to "waste his bullet" on one of them, when he can meaningfully improve his chances at a school more likely to admit him (or maybe even a school he would prefer to HYPS). It's in the RD round that there's no disincentive (other than application fees) to throw Hail Mary passes in all directions.</p>
<p>You guys are expecting way too much of these kids. Most of them are 17 (not 18; in fact, mine is 16). They're under enormous pressure, including the pressure of getting everything done, parental pressure, peer pressure, etc. All the while, they're secretly nursing a dream about a particular school, or set of schools. ED only makes things worse by introducing another level of complication and calculation and by accelerating the process to the very first day of senior year.</p>
<p>To dismiss that with "the dream aint coming true," or "oh puhleeze," seems very cruel.</p>
<p>Kudos to Harvard and Princeton for simplifying things and turning down the pressure on these kids, if only by a notch.</p>
<p>"Mini: I am confused about why you keep saying that this will end "lick and a prayer" HYPS applications."</p>
<p>It will encourage many of them (if wealthy enough) to apply ED to schools where they were better fits to begin with. It won't end them, of course, but H(Y)P would be quite happy to lose plenty of "well-qualified" applicants who would be just as happy elsewhere. Nine of of 10 of them (or more) are going to be rejected anyway, and, even if accepted, they might end up mismatched at the institution in any case.</p>
<p>This only works, of course, if other schools maintain their ED while H(Y)P, etc. make the switch.</p>
<p>"This is one of the answers to Mini's excellent, and much asked question, as to why the amount of institutional financial aid doled out from year to year doesn't change much at the elite schools if they're supposedly need-blind. The answer is simple: every admitted student with equal need does NOT get the same financial aid package. Those deemed most "desirable" get the better package (i.e., grants, little or no loans). This is, in my opinion, no different than need-based "merit scholarships." </p>
<p>These folks are professionals, with scores of years of experience behind them, lots of training in 'enrollment management', clear institutional missions, and budgets well set in advance. They KNOW what they are doing. Will Princeton "match" a $15,000 "merit" award from WSUTL? Probably not. Why should they, when a $5k "need-based grant" (ah'hem) rather than a loan will do the trick?</p>
<p>Well said, Roscoe. Cuts to the chase.</p>
<p>as i student, not being able to apply ed/ea would have increased the pressure, not decreased it</p>
<p>
[quote]
Marian/interesteddad: I think if you look, there are many, many LACs that accept 50% of their ED pool, or close to it, and probably 100% of the well-qualified candidates in the pool.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Trust me! I am familiar with those numbers!</p>
<p>Intereddad: “IMO, schools with ridiculously low odds of admission for a given student should never even make it onto a list of favorites. If college lists are built properly -- focusing on solid matches with a mild reach and a stone cold safety -- then the issue you raise never comes up. To do otherwise, would be analogous to me putting the red Ferrari on my list when I go car shopping. I know I can't afford the Ferrari….But, honestly, if a parent and kid can't identify a specific reason that the student is likely to be admitted to a school (beyond high SAT scores), why bother?”
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU </p>
<p>JHS: “If anything, the kids who apply ED or EA to HYPS are the super-qualified ones. They are confident that they will get into another good school, so they can afford (in more ways than one) to put in an early application with a less than 50% chance of success.” </p>
<p>I guess the question is what is “another good school.” Several extraordinarily well-qualified students at our local high school applied EA to HYPS, and other ivies, and ended up at UCLA or UC Berkeley. Clearly, these are outstanding schools, but to many don’t carry the cache of HYPSM.</p>
<p>Mini: “These folks are professionals, with scores of years of experience behind them, lots of training in 'enrollment management', clear institutional missions, and budgets well set in advance. They KNOW what they are doing.”
WELL SAID, THIS IS CLEARLY A DAVID AND GOLIATH SCENERIO</p>
<p>Carolyn:
CUTE JOKE</p>
<p>The other replies: "My private SAT tutor, college placement counselor, publicist, video production crew, and essay ghostwriter all agree....it'll restore some sanity to the college application process."</p>
<p>Carolyn: ROFL. Thank-you for that one. Ain't it the truth!</p>
<p>Roscoe:</p>
<p>Like Thatcher, your recent posts assumes that there is zero value to a student accepted ED. Marian's D chose to change her plans it the face of ED, which is one family's perspective. Other families choose to put in an app at the Dream lotto school -- as the ad says, "You Gotta Play to Win." If those families have the 50% chance of acceptance as I-dad notes (for Academic 1's), how are they not advantaged, even under finaid (where they choose voluntarily to give up the right to negotiate)? For these kids, "the pressure" if off 100 days earlier than it otherwise would be....Moreover, they have less of "everything to get done" -- no more apps! Seems like win-win for some who have planned their list well and really investigated schools as I-dad suggests.</p>
<p>I don't think that's well said at all. I think it's sadly unrealistic.</p>
<p>(1) The early deadline isn't that much earlier, and it's only one application. In California (home to a few kids), the early deadline is one month before the UC deadline. Big deal.</p>
<p>(2) Having the early deadline forces kids to get moving early, which is a good thing, because the whole process is more work than the kids think. Doing one application in October makes it much, much easier to do several more in December.</p>
<p>(3) In case you haven't noticed, kids have a LOT more to do at school in November and December than in September. GC's can use the extra time, too. Christmas vacation may be available, but it's no fun to spend it with a 12th grader who has not finished her applications (and I don't think those particular days produce great applications).</p>
<p>And why do you want a kid to "secretly nurse a dream about a particular school" if the kid has no chance of going there? How is that good for the kid? Wouldn't you prefer that there be some set of cues that would get the kid to start secretly nursing an achievable dream?</p>
<p>I am only skimming this whole debate, but I have to say something here:</p>
<p>Marian, I am going to come right out and say, I think your daughter is making a mistake. I think using ED for the sureness of it is definitely a twisting of its intent. If students only used ED for the school they most wanted to go to, then most of it's "evil" wouldn't exist.</p>
<p>In your D's case, if she's a plausible Yale SCEA, then surely she can put together a reach/match collection which will give plausible choices in the RD round. To cut herself short early on for the sake of the ED advantage is to me, a misuse of the system, but more importantly, a strangling of your daughter's true choices.</p>
<p>In my S's case: it went like this: Kid really likes Highly Selective U. Kid also likes Good Match Rolling Admissions U. Kid applies to both. Gets int GMRAU in October. Gets into ED school in December. Goes to ED school. Other scenario which could have happened: kid gets turned down by ED school. Goes to GMRAU instead. Or, GMRAU in pocket, kid applies RD round to other reach/match schools.</p>
<p>Kid kknows he gave dream a good shot. Kid ends up at good school either way.</p>
<p>Please consider discussing with your D another way of doing this--it just seems such a waste for her not to give it a shot.</p>