Princeton for premeds... is not that great

Colleges & Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Just throwing it out there. </p>

<p>So much grade deflation, it's tough to get good grades. Definitely possible, but if you want to get good grades and have some free time, you should reconsider Princeton.</p>

<p>And I'm a little jealous that other schools with med schools give opportunities for their students to get engaged in clinical research. There's plenty of research opportunities here, but only tangentially related to medicine.</p>

<p>I'm still extremely glad with my choice because Princeton forces me to work hard, and I think it will pay off later on in life. And Princeton's a wonderful place, but I argue that the grade deflation has a direct impact on med school acceptances (whether or not Princeton wants to admit it - check out mdapplicants.com and you'll find a 3.7 from Harvard is actually better for med school than a 3.7 from Princeton even though a 3.7 from Princeton is WAY harder to get (average GPA for Harvard is ~3.7 while average GPA for Princeton is a 3.35)).</p>

<p>Any premed Princeton applicants out there?</p>

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<p>Yeah.</p>

<p>I talked to my Chicago interviewer about this, so I’m sure something applies for Princeton.</p>

<p>While your grades won’t be as high as they would be at other places, you’re going to still get into a great medical school if you take the time to make a connection with your professors. A good letter from a specific person will be enough to explain any problems with deflated grades.</p>

<p>As long as you still do fine on the MCATs, that is.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I was under the impression that standardized test scores put your GPA into perspective; if you work so much harder, etc., you should be better prepared and your MCATs should reflect that.</p>

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<p>is it really that bad?</p>

<p>– randombetch, how many hours a day would you say you spend doing work? and what are your grades now?</p>

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<p>Randombetch, I’m sorry to hear that you’re feeling depressed about your medical school chances. You shouldn’t. Here are a few things to note about your observations above.</p>

<p>First, the site that you mention is not meant for these kinds of comparisons. The only information it presents is that which is voluntarily submitted by the users of the site. Note the language on their homepage:</p>

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<p>In other words, no comparable statistics can be drawn from that website since the information it presents is limited to just a handful of students who have decided to upload their GPAs and test scores. In Princeton’s case, an average of three undergraduates per year have submitted information to the site. In Harvard’s case that number is only five. Even if these were randomly submitted it would be far too small a sample to provide any reliable comparisons.</p>

<p>The actual statistics for Princeton are far more encouraging and are similar to those for both Harvard and Yale. The most current information is that about 95% of all Princeton undergraduates applying to medical school get accepted and this percentage has actually risen since the institution of the new grading policy. That percentage and others can be found here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/docs/Grading_Results_2005-2006.doc[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/docs/Grading_Results_2005-2006.doc&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>How does that 95% figure compare to peer schools? It’s virtually identical. </p>

<p>At Harvard, pre-med advising is done through the houses and there doesn’t seem to be any centralized location for current medical school applicant results. In 2002 (the most current information I could find on the web) about 94% of Harvard undergraduates who applied to medical school were accepted. In that same year, 82% of recent Harvard alumni who applied were accepted. See the highlighted box on the second page of the following document:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.lowell.harvard.edu/advising/pre-med/Fall_Premed_Meeting_2007.pdf[/url]”>http://www.lowell.harvard.edu/advising/pre-med/Fall_Premed_Meeting_2007.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>At Yale, the numbers are again about the same. While I can’t seem to find any central repository of statistics available online for Yale, here is a quote from a Yale Daily News article that gives some idea:</p>

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<p>[Yale</a> Daily News - UCS reports surge in medical-school apps.](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/22590]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/22590)</p>

<p>You’re also just a little bit off in your statistics regarding the new grading policy and average GPA comparisons. The average GPA at Harvard is only slightly higher than it is at Princeton. The Crimson reported recently that the mean (i.e. average) grade given at Harvard is a 3.45. ( [The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Report: Grade Inflation Persists](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=518824]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=518824) ) While this is not quite the same as a report on average GPA, it should come close. You are correct that the average GPA at Princeton, as reported officially by the University, is 3.35 for humanities majors. So the difference is just “.1” on a 4.0 scale. The situation at Yale is a little different and there appears to be more grade inflation in New Haven. Yale University does not officially report grade distributions as Princeton and Harvard do. Based on an unscientific poll conducted by the Yale Daily News, however, the average GPA at Yale may be somewhere between 3.6 and 3.7. </p>

<p>([Yale</a> Daily News - Poll suggests grade inflation](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/18226]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/18226) )</p>

<p>While Yale may have higher average GPAs than Princeton and Harvard, it does no better in medical school admissions than the other two.</p>

<p>I know that the pre-med track is stressful and I’m wishing you the best. You might still take comfort in the above facts. Princeton graduates do extremely well in medical school applications and you are at no disadvantage due to the new grading policy. Good luck!</p>

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<p>^^ Great post</p>

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<p>Thank you so much PtonGrad! That was a great post.</p>

<p>I’m applying for colleges next year (pre-med) and was concerned about grading policies. Princeton has been (and still is, now) my top choice, so thanks for that insight!</p>

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<p>Ptongrad:</p>

<p>You should note that in the last two years (the years grade deflation started to affect freshman and sophomore grades - which a bulk of the science GPA consists of), the average med school acceptance rate from Princeton decreased to 93.1% in 2007 and 90.4% in 2008 despite the number of applicants remaining consistent around 120, which is significantly lower than Harvard’s and Yale’s (twice the number of students who get rejected everywhere!). Also, many students at Princeton - arguably more than at Harvard/Yale - decide not to apply to med school because of low grades despite their competency. I personally know students like this.</p>

<p>As for your statistics on Harvard’s mean GPA, that was for the 2005-2006 year. I’m sure you’re aware of grade inflation. I’d estimate Harvard’s mean GPA for the 2008-2009 year to be somewhere around 3.6-3.7.</p>

<p>And mdapplicants has 33 entries from Princeton and 59 entries for Harvard - that’s more than enough to make some intelligent comparisons.</p>

<p>While med schools are aware that Princeton students with a 3.35 is comparable to Harvard students with a 3.6 or Yale students with a 3.7, they would logically choose the Harvard or Yale students simply because accepting the Princeton students would lower their average GPA (and thus their rankings). There’s no way that grade deflation can be legitimately argued to have no effect.</p>

<p>Trust me on this one: you will come to Princeton and realize it’s very difficult to get good grades, and much harder to get into top medical schools. I guarantee it. If you want to come anyway, great :slight_smile: it’s a good choice.</p>

<p>To Acceptd - I study around 5-6 hours a day and my grades are good. Around a 3.6 this semester for me.</p>

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<p>You guys are crazy. 90-95% of HYP applicants get into med school. Consider that most med schools only accept perhaps 2-5% of their applicants, and that only 50% of all applicants get accepted to any medical school.</p>

<p>At the cutoff point, it’s all about the MCAT score and racial quotas keeping about 10 students out of medical school each year. If you’ve got “only” a 3.3 GPA, then you need to ace the MCAT. It’s that simple.</p>

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<p>Sorry, Random, I thought I was trying to give you encouragement! It sounds as though you’re still a bit depressed about your chances but if you’re maintaining the grades you mention and you do well on the MCATs I’ll bet you’ll have reason to celebrate!</p>

<p>I’m a bit embarrassed. I did a little more searching and did finally find a document online that shows you are correct about the 2007 and 2008 medical school acceptance percentages. It can be found at the bottom of this document:</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> University - Dean of the College - FAQ](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/#comp000047219e980000000b7078c0]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/#comp000047219e980000000b7078c0)</p>

<p>So the acceptance rate rose in 2005 and 2006 and then fell in 2007 and 2008. This may simply be variation from year-to-year. Let’s check back in on this a year from now and see what the percentage acceptance rate is for 2009. I’ll make a bet with you that it rises. Given the small total number of applicants each year (around 100) the change from 2006 (94.7% acceptance rate) to 2008 (90.4% acceptance rate) would have been the result of six more applicants not getting accepted. In other words, given the small numbers, the percentage acceptance rate could change quite a bit from one year to the next. That’s probably why Yale’s premed advisor stated that Yale’s applicants see an acceptance rate of between “90 and 95 percent” rather than stating an exact number.</p>

<p>By the way, I very much doubt your theory about grade deflation explaining changes in medical school acceptance rates. The same document I linked above shows that in the natural sciences, the average grade had only dropped .02 on a 4.0 scale between the fall of 2005 and the spring of 2008. That would surely not be enough to affect medical school admissions. Grade deflation has hardly affected the sciences at all. </p>

<p>You also write that Princeton’s last two years of medical school acceptances are “significantly lower than Harvard’s and Yale’s.” Have you found actual numbers for this? All that I’ve been able to find suggest that Harvard’s acceptance rate and Yale’s are about the same as Princeton’s. I’d be very interested to see anything that you can post as a link that would show this.</p>

<p>You note that you believe Harvard’s undergraduate GPA for 2008/2009 is around a 3.6 to 3.7. Here I am very certain you are wrong. Harvard is well aware of the problem of grade inflation (there was even some talk about it when I was there for law school) and it is simply not credible that the average GPA at Harvard has jumped from 3.45 to 3.6 or 3.7 in less than two years. It would be shocking that so much grade inflation has occurred in such a short time. Do you have a link for verification of this?</p>

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<p>And mdapplicants has 33 entries from Princeton and 59 entries for Harvard - that’s more than enough to make some intelligent comparisons.

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<p>As for the website to which you are referring, you must not have noticed that the number of entries for Princeton and Harvard cover applications over an eight to ten year period, so, yes, you have an average of just 3 to 5 data points per year, far too few to make conclusions especially since the group reporting is self-selected. For Princeton, there are four entries for 2008, and three each for 2007, 2006 and 2005.</p>

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<p>While med schools are aware that Princeton students with a 3.35 is comparable to Harvard students with a 3.6 or Yale students with a 3.7, they would logically choose the Harvard or Yale students simply because accepting the Princeton students would lower their average GPA (and thus their rankings).

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<p>There is no way that this would be a consideration. There are approximately 100 Princeton students entering medical school each year and they are spread out among many different programs. Given the relatively small number of Princeton students at any one medical school and the small difference in their GPAs, the effect on the average GPA of the entire medical school would be miniscule. Remember as well, that medical schools like to advertise that their classes are made up of graduates from the top undergraduate schools in the country.</p>

<p>I do hope that you’re not feeling too depressed. I have many friends who went through medical school and it is absolutely the case that the whole process is stressful. The undergraduate preparatory classes are difficult, the testing is tough and the application and interviews can be grueling. Still, that’s why we hold physicians in such high esteem. The screening process generally results in only the very best being represented! Again, good luck!</p>

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<p>A 3.35 at Princeton comparable to a 3.6 or 3.7 at H or Y?? The grade deflation policy here is not nearly that severe. For any student considering Princeton, I would NOT worry much, if at all, about grade deflation here. Grade deflation really means “less excessive though still generous giving out of A’s.” Now, if you were pre-med at a place like Caltech… then yeah, that would be quite bad.</p>

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<p>“There is no way that this would be a consideration. There are approximately 100 Princeton students entering medical school each year and they are spread out among many different programs. Given the relatively small number of Princeton students at any one medical school and the small difference in their GPAs, the effect on the average GPA of the entire medical school would be miniscule. Remember as well, that medical schools like to advertise that their classes are made up of graduates from the top undergraduate schools in the country.”</p>

<p>That could be said about EVERY university in the country. “Oh there are so few students applying that the school won’t care about accepting a few with a lower GPA than average.” Except they do care. Or else their average GPAs fall. And if you look at ranking methodology, the % from top undergrads is not a criterion - I am sure that they care about their average GPA significantly more than number of Princeton alumni that attend their school.</p>

<p>And a 3.35 from Princeton is average, a 3.7 from Yale is average. In what way are they not comparable? If I were a pre-med student applying to college, I would worry about it. Grade deflation affects the amount of studying done at Princeton, which affects EVERYTHING - hours spent partying, hours spent sleeping, hours spent on extra-curricular activities, etc.</p>

<p>And no S*** you have to do well on the MCAT. Thanks for that amazing insight jameschen that was so specific to Princeton students. I would never have guessed it. Of course it’s totally really easy to raise your MCAT score 3-4 points to make up for a subpar GPA right? I mean, anyone could do it: people just choose not to because they know their undergrad GPAs are good enough for the schools they want to go to, right? Wow. If you have a 3.3 from Princeton with a 35 on the MCAT, you’re worse off than a 3.7 from Yale with a 35 MCAT. It’s as simple as that.</p>

<p>And I’m not feeling depressed about med school at all. I got a 4.0 science GPA this semester actually (getting an A in a science course means top 15-20% of your class which is full of outstanding students, an A- is from top 20% to top 35%), and I have scored very well on my practice MCATs. I’m still looking at Harvard Med School and UCSF - but sadly, I am a minority among Princeton pre-meds. This is why I am posting this. I’m just trying to give Princeton applicants a REALISTIC view of what being a pre-med at Princeton is like.</p>

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<p>I guess since working as investment bankers and newspaper reporters is no longer an option for the Class of 2009, med school is becoming more popular among Princeton grads.</p>

<p>So ten Princeton undergrads with GPAs below 3.0 and less than stellar MCAT scores can’t get into medical school every year. And those that do get accepted might have to settle for med school at UMDNJ or Hahnemann. Why don’t you all submit randombetch’s post as your medical school essay and let that explain why Temple and Toledo med schools need to admit a few more Princeton students at the expense of Harvard and Yale grads? Or just change your name to Alexi Indris Santana and decline to state your race on the application.</p>

<p>Oh, the humanity!</p>

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<p>[Some</a> graduate schools, employers still unfamiliar with grade deflation policy - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/03/25/23135/]Some”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/03/25/23135/)</p>

<p>Told you they care about their average GPA.</p>

<p>And jamescchen, uhh take your sarcasm and strangle yourself with it - you’re not as witty as you are childish. And you’re not as childish as you are just plain lacking in intelligence. No one gives a **** about your moronic opinions. :)</p>

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<p>According to Princeton, grade deflation has had its smallest impact on the natural sciences, with 35.3% A grades given between 2005-08 compared to 37.2% from 2001-04. The decline in the mean grade given in the natural sciences during that time is less than one tenth of a percent. In fact, the biggest impact on pre-med students would appear to be on their GPA when they have to meet distribution requirements outside of the natural sciences. Overall, mean grades are down about one tenth of one percent during this period. </p>

<p>What is known about the policy so far is that 1) it is scaring off some potential applicants, 2) lots of undergraduates dislike the policy and some believe it has changed the atmosphere of the campus for the worse 3) some graduate schools and employers are not aware of the policy. Long-term, however, the effects of the policy are unclear. If it permeates the general consciousness that an “A” from Princeton means more than an “A” from Harvard, Yale, and other elite schools, the long-term result may be to the good.</p>

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<p>^What the heck are you talking about, only about 1/3 of my classes are natural science classes. You think pre-meds take only sciences + dist reqs?</p>

<p>All math/science/engineering courses are capped at 35%, and almost all social sciences are capped at 35% as well.</p>

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<ul>
<li>Princeton requires a very large distribution requirement, with a liberal art emphasis on social science courses/humanities. Thus, every premeds will probably be hurt by the grading policy. It is well publicized that med schools don’t have official GPA bumps for grade-deflated schools: whether Pton, Caltech, MIT or Harvey Mudd, you are judged from the same standard as Harvard etc…</li>
</ul>

<p>Which is really sad.</p>

<p>I have a relative who’s considering Stanford and Princeton for Premed, and I can tell you he likes both schools equally, but is leaning to enroll at Stanford because of their more lenient grading policies. It would probably not be surprising for Princeton’s yield to go down.</p>

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<p>But obviously Princeton pre-meds are doing well enough that over 90% of those that apply get accepted to med school, right?</p>

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<p>Well, that’s a pretty good figure. Only, I suspect, many many premeds will be weeded out early, only leaving the elite to apply.</p>

<p>And only those with decent GPA’s will dare to apply. Obviously, those having those “decent” GPA’s have higher abilities, and thus probably also better MCAT’s, and better EC’s. The % does not take in account maybe an increase in the number of premeds weeded out early.</p>

<p>I’m actually for grade deflation. I hate when teachers treat us as if we needed them to inflate our grades. It’s irritably condescending. Except I’m not a premed. However, med schools probably don’t care about Pton’s policy. I’m sure grad school admission is not much affected, for grad schools are much more reliant on other factors than purely grade (they want great researchers).</p>

<p>I hope grade-deflation will not be accompanied by an overcompetitiveness of peers though. We would never want Pton turnt into Harvard. Then, it would really suck :(</p>

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<p>“Only, I suspect, many many premeds will be weeded out early, only leaving the elite to apply.”</p>

<p>From personal experience, your suspicions are true. I’ve met many people here who say, “oh, I was thinking about being pre-med but it’s too hard here.”</p>

<p>Princeton kids, generally, don’t apply to med schools unless they know they can get in. And we all do crazy amounts of extracurricular stuff. That’s why we have good admit rates into med schools.</p>