Princeton limits the # of A's

Parents Forum
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<p>In my opinion any university, provost, and faculty that hand out 55% A's should be held accountable if their graduates do not perform commensurately on the GRE's, LSAT, and other externally graded examinations. If the students truly mastered the material then they should be scoring in the top 10% on this examinations. If not then the folks handing out the grades have some 'splaining to do.</p>

<p>I also find it amusing that the kind of grade grubbers Princeton accepts into its undergraduate programs should all of a sudden become so equalitarian. Life will be a rat race in the professions, and the business world, or in academia when the leave their undergraduate years. They may as well get used to it.</p>

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<p>Roger-
thanks you for finding a public link to the article. I wasn't able to do so.</p>

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<p>That should be egalitarian - can't type, can't spell, couldn't get into Princeton</p>

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<p>It seems like Swarthmore has been walking this road of preventing grade inflation for the last decade or so. It would be interesting to know if the average GPA of a graduating senior at Swarthmore is lower than say a Princeton or Williams graduate, and whether as a result Swarthmore graduates have a harder time getting into graduate or professional programs. My sense is that Swarthmore is quite successful in getting their students into graduate programs, but I have no data. If anyone knows it would be particularly interesting to know what the overall acceptance rate of Swarthmore students vs Princeton/Williams students to Ph.D. and MD programs.</p>

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<p>My sense is that the impact of grade deflation on Ph.D. programs and law/M.D. programs should be considered separately. In Ph.D. programs, selection committees are less driven by pure stats than law and med school adcoms (this is similar to the private/public universities dichotomy regarding high school GPAs). LACs are known to send more of their students to Ph.D. programs than many Ivies where the students are likely to go into law or medical or business schools.</p>

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<p>"It seems like Swarthmore has been walking this road of preventing grade inflation for the last decade or so. It would be interesting to know if the average GPA of a graduating senior at Swarthmore is lower than say a Princeton or Williams graduate, and whether as a result Swarthmore graduates have a harder time getting into graduate or professional programs. My sense is that Swarthmore is quite successful in getting their students into graduate programs, but I have no data."</p>

<p>Data on Swarthmore Ph.D. productivity can be found on the Reed site, and is extremely high. Grade inflation at Swarthmore, however, has run at the same rate as Princeton's over the past 25 years, with average GPAs rising from 2.79 to 3.29. At Swarthmore, they also don't count first semester grades in GPA (with uncertain effects), and for years did not count honors grades as well (again with uncertain effects.)</p>

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<p>Hi Patuxent. I'm sure you didn't expect to let this stand:</p>

<p>"I also find it amusing that the kind of grade grubbers Princeton accepts into its undergraduate programs ..."</p>

<p>Have you much first-hand knowdedge of Princeton undergraduates, Patuxent? Perhaps I shouldn't have called them 'straight A' in a previous post. At some schools like Belmont, it would be more appropriately: their top students. In any case, the top schools (universities and LACs), at least the top private ones, look at the whole person, not just grades and test scores. If you did know many Princeton kids, Patuxent, I'm sure you would realize that they are not just very bright but very involved in their schools and community and have all sorts of talents and interests. Having top grades and test scores isn't enough to get you into top schools though I am sure there are truly of-the-charts brilliant kids who could get in just on their potential contributions to their fields, but then they wouldn't be grade grubbers either, would they?</p>

<p>Grade-grubbers, Patuxent, I see as kids who are focused on grades not on an education. If my child, for example, were focused on grades and only interested in getting into med school or law school or grad school, then certainly any number of the schools offering free rides (or, more appropriately, free but taxed) would have been the places to go, if grades were the focus. But I would guess, Patuxent, that most if not all of the kids at Princeton are there for the education. It is, after all, one of the best undergraduate educations to be had in the world.</p>

<p>My child was accepted to Princeton when all of this anti-grade-inflation initiative came about, or at least when I heard of it. I have to admit, it did scare me at first (quotas? How can you put quotas on the number of A's?). Like Mr.B said, but I think on the Boston thread, there might be a class where a bunch of kids do amazing things. Well, the professors at Princeton are the ones who grade. As long as they hold the reins where grading is concerned, I am confident that grading will be fair. My concern was that good grades be attainable, and they are. But it is with a lot of hard work, as it should be. Of course I worried. I have a child from a normal public school that rarely sends kids to HPYSM AWS, and etc. My kid in the midst of all that brainpower--it's a little daunting. </p>

<p>If the result of this initiative is that the majors are more alligned in their grading policies and that the standards of excellence are held high, then those things will benefit Princeton students. No absolute quotas are imposed (thank goodness), but some departments already are very close to the percentages discussed. </p>

<p>Schools with high standards don't necessarily have cut-throat competition. What I have seen elsewhere, and what I have heard so far from my freshman at Princeton, is more along the lines of working together to do well, where that is appropriate. It's not as if there is only one A in a class, so if you and your friends get good grades on your science tests, there is nothing wrong with that, and then together you can celebrate your success.</p>

<p>Marite, I too wonder how the colleges make grad schools aware and considerate of their grading policies. Good question about Swarthmore, Mol10e. I'm glad Mini found some info. For twenty-five years, that doesn't seem like such a difference to me considering that high schoolers are doing a lot of advanced work these days. More than twenty-five years ago I would guess. ??</p>

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<p>Cricket:</p>

<p>Grad schools adcoms do read whole files that include transcripts, GREs but also statements of purpose and recs. From what I know, those statements and recs count very heavily, as do courses in the intended field of study. Gen Ed requirement courses are given less weight, so the GPA is not as important as excellence and preparation for the Ph.D. program.</p>

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<p>For an interesting analysis of grade inflation at American colleges and universities by Stuart Rojstaczer, a professor of environmental science at Duke University, see <a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>And for an interesting op-ed piece by said Stuart Rojstaczer, see <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52648-2003Jan27&notFound=true%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52648-2003Jan27&notFound=true&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>(no copyright infringement issues this way)</p>

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<p>I like the idea behind limiting the number of A's, but instead of putting a quota on it, I think grade inflation should be reduced. When over 35% of the class is receving an A, I see a serious problem. I think this will simply result in the professor saying, this assesment is slightly less than this one, this person gets an A-, this person a B+.</p>

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<p>And one more. Why not?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.psych.ubc.ca/babble/archive/2002/mar02/story6.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.psych.ubc.ca/babble/archive/2002/mar02/story6.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I remember my first "C" grade on my very first test at an Ivy college. I knew something must be wrong, I answered every question correct according to the book. At my appointment with the TA he agreed, I had answered the questions just like the book...and then he showed me how other students had answered the question better than the book; how they had synthesized book, class lectures and original thought to produce a truly outstanding response. I left that room a changed person...</p>

<p>One of the biggest problems with grade inflation occurs when several professors teach the same course but with a different grading standard, or if the standard fluctuates from one year to another; or from one TA to another. The concern now is if you took the class as a freshman or sophmore and got an A and now I take it as a junior and get a B, how will grad school know we were doing the same quality of work. Multiply it by four or more classes and there is a shift within class rankings. A different problem is when a professor gets a class full of hard working smart students who do deserve all A's by the class standards.</p>

<p>If this problem is not curbed the solution may be standardized tests in Writing, Math, Sciences and that is not a desirable outcome.</p>

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<p>Mr. B -- I had the same experience. The professor told me I had done a great job learning and summarizing the arguments in the reading. Now, did I agree or disagree with what I'd read? What a liberating feeling, to know I was allowed to make an argument of my own rather than just parroting what I'd heard in class or read in texts. It marked the true transition from high school to college for me. Only thing is, the grade was a B+. Did I learn anything less than if the grade had been a C?</p>

<p>Of the different purposes for grades, I think the purpose of motivating and teaching with them is the one I can see most value in. If students are getting As who could learn to do better work if they got a B or C for a change, then the bar is too low and they are missing out on an experience that might push them harder and make them learn more. But I don't have much sympathy with the other purpose -- to make it easier for employers and graduate admissions committees to distinguish one A student from another. Let the med schools and law schools and heads of hiring figure out how to do this on their own, by relying on more than the stats. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe the problem in terms of grad school and employment is not grade inflation as much as honors inflation.</p>

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<p>What I think is unfair about what Princeton is doing is that the kids are already off-the-charts if they get into Princeton. I mean it creates even more terror about grades among the best of the best. </p>

<p>I know at one of the UCs, a nephew was encountering a problem where professors would ask for a 20-page paper, but kids would turn in 60-page papers. The ones with 60 pages were getting the As, and the ones who followed directions were getting Cs. Because of the curve. </p>

<p>I can't even imagine the curve these professors will operate from if everybody starts out with a 1450-plus SAT. Will 100 percent even get some of these kids an A? Will it have to be 120 percent? Very unfair.</p>

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<p>After reading this post and similar ones in the past few days, I was shocked when my AP Politics teacher handed out the grade sheet, which is an anonymous listing of every students grade in the class. Without the AP weight, 62% had A's, with the weight, 94% had A's.</p>

<p>Crazy, right? Maybe we should be trying a little harder to curb the grade inflation...though high school grade inflation is probably different. At HS, I sometimes wonder if kids who don't work as hard get the same grades - it seems at colleges like Princeton ALL the students work really hard and perform almost equally well, and then get bumped down because of a quota.</p>

<p>Anyways, just my two cents.</p>

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<p>I do not share this concern ... I went to a top (not quite Princeton but relatively close) school that curved (freshman average about 2.6) and we all survived without going nuts. After the culture shock of not getting all As most kids went about the business of doing as well as they could within whatever effort/intensity level they defoined for themselves. There were kids spending 50 hours a week on school (including classes) and other kids spending 100 hours a week on school. Between differences in ability and lifestyle choices the grades spread out without whoesale cutthroat behavior. Did some kids work "too hard"?; in my opinion a very few did. Did some kids work their butt off and get terrible grades?; very-very few ... most of the kids getting "poor" grades were not working very hard at all. Alot of kids had to learn to deal with working hard and "only" getting 3.0-3.5 grades. </p>

<p>Personally, I believe I am much better off for the experience ... it taught me what hard work really was, to focus on doing as well as I could, that choices always need to be made in life, and that if I work hard I could do very well but not terrific (because some kids are just plain smarter than I am).</p>

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<p>Jym626-- my employer absolutely looks at transcripts and not just resumes of people applying for jobs out of undergrad. You'd be surprised at the number of kids from decent schools with a 3.8 GPA (sounds promising, no?) and then you see that while enrolled as a "fulltime student" according to the registrar, they carried a course load of 2-3 courses per semester, or had several mid-term "drops" or who were loaded up with gut type courses to balance a few more rigorous classes where presumably they didn't want to drop their average.</p>

<p>Would we deny employment to a kid with these issues? No-- but it's definitely a discussion during the interviews. If it took you 6 years to graduate from a school where most kids do it in 4, and you have a high GPA, that's not quite the rigor all employers are looking for. Kids who had financial issues, took time off to take care of an ailing parent, etc. are all fine and legit excuses for time off or a lighter load, but the kids who manipulate the gpa by taking a light course load aren't going to be able to handle a demanding job in the real world where bosses don't give incompletes.</p>

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<p>Didn't this all start with Stanford a few years ago........? They said that they were going to curb their grade inflation "issue"...and then I thought Princeton followed pretty quickly thereafter.....there was an article in the NY Times about how many Ivies were going to follow Stanford, I think.</p>

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<p>cricket - High Schoolers are doing such advanced work that we have had to recenter the SAT's once and the average scores still aren't where they were in the late sixties. Nobody can seriously believe there hasn't been massive grade inflation at both the high school and college level in the last couple of decades.</p>

<p>As for Princetonians I don't really know any particularly well. I believe my sons graduating class sent three there and a couple were buddies of his. Well rounded, intelligent kids - but well aware that a high school "C" would kill their chances at Princeton even in a magnet program. The same goes for the other dozen or so kids that went Ivy or turned Ivy's down to go elsewhere. My grade grubber point was merely that kids who worked hard and valued good grades for what the represented as well as the doors they could open shouldn't be expecting to stop being graded once they leave high school or college for that matter.</p>

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<p>Employers will not undersatnd this grade deflation. Pton is hurting its students terribly. They will say, well they only got a B, how smart can they be? That's what will happen for sure.</p>