<p>Lindsey, noooo!!! You're letting the inexorable power of the Harvard name overpower you! Think back to why you applied EA Yale not EA Harvard in the first place!!! Don't let it get to you! (And don't forget that you got into Princeton, too, which is definitely the dark horse of your wonderful acceptances---You should go there)</p>
<p>And just think of the strange Bostonian accent you'll always have to deal with if you pick Harvard...yikes...;)</p>
<p>Christopher,</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out the smiley.</p>
<p>I recognize that people do often rely on hearsay, but it is, in fact, possible for admitted students to do on-campus interviews with students and professors of departments you're interested in. The admissions office at each of these schools can help set this up if you're able to visit (perhaps not every professor will be available on any given visit, but you can certainly talk to students and attend some classes). And I think this is a much better way of making a decision than relying on biased propaganda - including mine ;) - on a chat board. </p>
<p>I also recognize that Harvard has the <em>reputation</em> for being less oriented toward undergraduates than Princeton or Yale, but I think it's an undeserved reputation. So I encourage you to check it out firsthand. Of course, given that I went to Harvard undergrad and Yale grad school, I find it doubly irksome when Yale proclaims itself more focused on undergraduate than graduate education. :)</p>
<p>As for unhappy students, you will find some at HYP and virtually any other school. I know a couple of recent Princeton grads who really disliked the place and talked it down to my son to such a great extent that he wouldn't even consider applying there (despite my efforts to convince him at least to look at it for himself). So hopefully I'll have more impact on you with my advice to keep an open mind than I did with my son!</p>
<p>Cosar, I definitely think your advice is sound, at least in your suggestions on how to pick a college. One thing, though, is that specific anecdotal evidence is often misleading. To me, college is what you make of it, and some people simply don't take advantage of the many opportunities at HYP. So, people will hear many different accounts of experiences at these schools, depending more on the person you ask than on the school itself. Thus, for some things I think it's valuable to also rely on surveys and hard facts, which, when I looked at the qualities that were most important to me, supported my decision in applying early to princeton. </p>
<p>For instance, although what I'd heard from alumni was overwhelmingly positive, I also found supporting numbers that most princetonians seem very happy with their experience, based off of student surveys (from p.r., it's the only only one of the "big 3" included in the top 20 happiest schools out of the 360 or so surveyed) and the very impressive alumni giving rate. Also, although Harvard has a larger endowment (because of its larger size), Princeton has more money per student than either H or Y, and is very liberal in spending money on the students. It also has the best student: faculty ratio out of the three. Anecdotal evidence can be useful to get a general picture, as I learned when I talked to students about the "elitist" atmosphere--an image that was largely debunked in my mind by their positive accounts of the eating club system, and also the supporting numbers helped me realize the truth of the situation: largest % of students on financial aid out of HYP, best financial aid program, etc. This year, also, based on the data that P has released, it seems like it will be the most diverse freshman class out of the three. So, I would hope that most prospective students would, as you said, go to the campus and find things out firsthand, and also find some factual support if they are going to make a conclusion about certain aspects of a school.</p>
<p>Although New Haven is small and sometimes takes a bad rap because it's surrounded by relatively low-income, crime-ridden neighborhoods, the Yale area itself is quite charming. Everything is accessible by foot, including the whole campus (the medical school if farther away, but not completely separate from the undergrad campus). All of the New Haven stores and restaurants are pretty close to campus, save the best three pizza places (Sally's, Pepe's, and Modern). You definitely need a car or a shuttle or something for those. The other night I had to get from the medical school to two blocks north of Silliman (which is the res. college across from Woolsey and farthest away from Old Campus), and I did the "brusque walk" in about 15 minutes. Maybe fewer. </p>
<p>Anyway, my purpose in life should be to get you to say a resounding "NO" to New Haven (since I'm on the waitlist and I still want to go really badly, dear god), but I've told you the facts. New Haven is really a charming place to be, and I predict if you do join Yale '09, you won't regret it. Not even a little.</p>
<p>For those not impressed with "soft" discussions, here are the facts. No major national ranking publication puts Yale ahead of Princeton (close but no cigar).</p>
<p>US NEWS</p>
<ol>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
</ol>
<p>ATLANTIC MONTHLY</p>
<ol>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>CatTech</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
</ol>
<p>Princeton Review</p>
<ol>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>CalTech</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
</ol>
<p>The Nation's Best Selling Student Review Guide (not allowed to be mentioned here - a competitor)</p>
<p>A+ Princeton
A+ Stanford
A+ MIT
A+ Williams
A Yale</p>
<p>Crime Stats (courtesy of CBulldog in CC archives)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.stalcommpol.org/data.html?*%5B/url%5D">http://www.stalcommpol.org/data.html?*</a></p>
<p>If you choose a school based on these rankings... that would be sad. Hopefully you won't go to Yale. No shallow people allowed.</p>
<p>Millions of people use these rankings. They are promoted on the web sites of many top 25 schools. They are on the radar screen of both High School GCs and college admission reps. They receive much attention in the newspapers of the top colleges (Yale included).</p>
<p>Sure these rankings are used, as in for reference and a general guide to good colleges. But in the SERIOUS attempt to choose a college, they have little use to differentiate which school is right for you. Saying Princeton is better than harvard or yale because it is ranked higher is childish, and frankly, superficial as these rankings in no way are able to measure the wider breadth of a college experience. Princeton's higher ranking for "selectivity" means absolutely nothing when it comes to quality. And students agree as the majority of them do not go to Princeton over Harvard or Yale even though it is ranked higher (just look at its RD yield, which trails both harvard and yale even, or the revealed preference study, which you randomly hate because its not "used" by GC, who shouldn't use it in the first place). Choosing Princeton because its ranked higher is like choosing to go to Harvard because it has the lowest acceptance rate. They don't mean anything to the individual applicant, but to cheerleader trolls, they mean everything. </p>
<p>You are obsessed with getting the word out that Princeton is ranked higher. I think your energies would be more served if you actually provided some substance to why Princeton is better rather than flimsy reliance on "useful" rankings.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Princeton's higher ranking for "selectivity" means absolutely nothing when it comes to quality.
[/quote]
In the most recent US News, Yale had the #1 selectivity ranking.</p>
<p>I'm visiting Harvard today and tomorrow and I just have to say...WOW, Boston/Cambridge are sooo amazing. Wow...</p>
<p>i wasn't suggesting that students base their decision off of generic rankings like those that pcessly is referring to at all. i'm just saying that students should not rely only on individual anecdotes, since those can be misleading. looking at hard facts can be helpful, at times, and looking at the number of students who rate themselves as "happy" on campus doesn't seem to be so childish to me. Also, one reason that "revealed preference" is unfair is that all of the students who really love princeton (the ED admits) are taken out of the "competition" because they are only admitted at 1 school and discontinue their other apps, while those at Harvard, since it is EA, often let their other applications continue on and then ultimately usually pick harvard at the end (same situation with yale). the same goes for the RD yield. In fact, i think that Princeton has the highest ranking on that system of any ED school.</p>
<p>Well..... Princeton and Yale are BEAUTIFUL and harvard is butt ugly. Deciding between Y and P is a matter of personality, and should only be treated as such. Plus, New Haven is a GREAT city. I actually really liked it-it has a lot of personality. Plus its really close to NYC, which beats boston any day of the week.</p>
<p>CrimsonB., I am responding here to you again.</p>
<p>Many people come here and say "my school is better than yours" with nothing to back it up. I like facts, and the FACTS are these:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The US NEWS poll is not a selectivity poll. It puts Princeton ahead of Yale for many reasons. Selectivity is just one of more than ten factors it considers.</p></li>
<li><p>The largest student review guide in the nation (whose name cannot be mentioned here) puts Princeton ahead of Yale, not because of selectivity but because of academic environment.</p></li>
<li><p>The Fiske Guide's statement that Columbia may overtake Yale's position among the Big 3 IVYs (HYP) has little to do with selectivty, but rather with Columbia's rise in prominence and Yale's position as the weaker of the current BIG 3.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton has, by definition, TOTAL Undergraduate Focus. This is something that Yale with all its grad programs can never match.</p></li>
<li><p>Yale has significantly greater on campus crime than Princeton.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>These are facts and the views of others who are in the business of evaluating schools. Not my personal BS. Ranking after ranking, among the credible, national evaluators, no matter what the criteria, Princeton always comes out ahead. I have yet to see a national, undergraduate ranking publication show otherwise.</p>
<p>As far as yield goes, even that famous yield promoter has Princeton and Yale in a dead heat. So be careful when you say things without support. I mentioned at the Harvard site the flaw with using cross admits, below is the problem with looking at yield to determine selectivity (from the harvard thread):</p>
<p>Problem with using yield analysis to measure selectivity:</p>
<p>"It is very evident from the various admissions threads that yield is not driving the bus with top schools. Case in point - At the Princeton site there are a number of students, with top credentials (1,550 SATs etc.) who were rejected at both the ED and RD levels. These same students however were
accepted at Harvard and/or Yale. These were clearly qualified students. My point is that if Princeton was driven by yield concerns, wouldn't it make sense to accept these students since they indicated earlier in the ED process that Princeton was their top choice school? The simple answer is yes of course (if Princeron was driven by yield)."</p>
<p>Pcessly, I wouldn't use the rankings as a factor in making my decision between Y and P. Even though USNews and company are decent general indicators of a school's quality, you can't make decisions based on differences of 1 or 2 places in the rankings; such small differences in the general rankings are negligible. Are you a senior? (it doesn't sound like it). Even though i'd definitely choose princeton, I think that it has so many tangible qualities that are so great, you'd be doing it a disservice to claim that it is the best based on overall rankings like USN and PR. There are so many reasons to choose princeton, and none of those include US News or Princeton review or Atlantic Monthly. Also, i don't think you need to diminish other schools to further your cause. Yale is a very, very good school, many princetonians and yalies strongly considered both schools, and there's no reason to believe that Yale is diminishing in stature in any way. I understand your frustration at crimson's misleading and unsupported generalizations, but I'd stick to more substantive data to back up your claims than US News rankings. Plus, it doesn't sound like you're into Princeton yet, so I wouldn't be so quick to criticize Yale.. you might just end up there :)</p>
<p>So, in summary, can't we all just.. get along? I think that a lot of very useful information has been provided on this thread and its sister thread that can truly help people make informed decisions, and maybe it's time to call a truce to the battle. I don't think either school is "winning" anybody by putting the other down. </p>
<p>PEACE :)</p>
<p>(maybe our frustrations are better vented on another member of the big three... :)</p>
<p>what are my misleading and unsupported generalizations?</p>
<p>The PR rank that PCESSLY listed is "toughest to get into" college rank. </p>
<p>The rank for best academics by the PR is:
1. Uchicago
2. Marlboro
3. reed
4. St Johns
5. Swarthmore</p>
<p>Reed is better than Princeton, Yale, and Harvard. Obviously, the PR said so...</p>
<p>The survey you referred to was "Best Academic Experience" not "Best Academics". Big Difference! Are you that desperate?</p>
<p>The criteria for that survey was as follows:</p>
<p>"Academic Rating
How hard students work and how much they get back for their efforts, on a scale of 60-99. This rating is calculated from student survey results and statistical information reported by administrators. Factors weighed include how many hours students study outside of the classroom and the quality of students the school attracts. We also considered students' assessments of their professors, class size, student-teacher ratio, use of teaching assistants, amount of class discussion, registration, and resources."</p>
<p>Given that the IVYs, particularly H, are witnessing, in some cases, massive grade inflation, with students at some schools not even attending classes, did you really expect to see them at the top that list. The criteria here in the ranking is heavily survey based, unlike the "Toughest Schools to Get Into" ranking. </p>
<p>Did you really expect to see schools like the one described below at the top of that list?</p>
<p>Best academics and best academic experience sound like the same thing (and from reading the criteria, I feel the same). Much more deceptive was your placement of a "toughest to get into" rank in the midst of general assesment ranks. Maybe in your next reposting of those lists, you'll leave the PR rank out as it obviously is based on a criteria that has tangential bearing on comparing schools. </p>
<p>To me and almost anyone right now using this compendium of absurd rankings to gauge a school, "best academic experience" criteria means alot more than "toughest to get into".</p>
<p>"Toughest School To Get Into" is an assessment. It is one of the few PR rankings that is based on "hard" factors and not surveys. The criteria for that ranking has been discussed here many times. If you check the archives you will see that you referred to it in a dicussion with Byerly when he claimed erroneously that it was based on surveys. </p>
<p>Again, PR, Atlantic Monthly, National Student Survey Guide, US News, Fiske, all different criteria, all pointing to the same order: Princeton before Yale.</p>
<p>Rankings change every year. You can't change your college every year.</p>