Princeton settles LD lawsuit but is being investigated for Civil Rights violations

Parents Forum
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<p>Princeton has settled its LD lawsuit wit Diane Metcalf-Legette, who is now getting 100% extra time as she had originally requested. See Metcalf-Leggette</a> ?13 settles suit with University - The Daily Princetonian.</p>

<p>However, in part as a result of that case, in which M-L alleges that she was threatened with retaliation if she didn't drop the lawsuit, and a complaint by the parent of another admitted student, "The Office for Civil Rights of the Department of Education is currently conducting two separate investigations of the University in response to student allegations that the administration has violated the Americans with Disabilities Act." University</a> accused of civil rights violations - The Daily Princetonian.</p>

<p>I'm a Princeton alum and loved the school. I'm going back for my reunion later this month. However, I advised my son not to go there. In an earlier post about this lawsuit, I wrote about schools like Princeton, "At the most fundamental level, they have a deep belief that they have a curriculum and a system that provides the best education available. In this view, any alterations (waiver of language requirement, extra time, scribe for papers, readers, etc.) are moves to undermine the curriculum. Here's the attitude: "University attorney Hannah Ross told Metcalf-Leggette that Princeton is not required to offer extended time on exams if doing so would jeopardize the “essence” of a Princeton education, the law journal reported." The Dean for Disabilities Services really serves as a guard whose job is to block the untoward advances of undergraduates who are trying to circumvent the one and only true education. That's their way and their view, although I think it is antiquated and quite possibly in violation of the ADA Amendments Act of 2008." Despite platitudinous lip service to accommodating people with disabilities, schools like Princeton do not really believe that bright kids with LDs either exist or should be at Princeton. And, the OCR investigation will test my hunch that Princeton's policy violates the ADA, although I think the ADA Amendments Act of 2008, when implemented, will provide a higher hurdle for university policies.</p>

<p>Since I wrote that, momPhD told me about her daughter's experience with the head of disabilities services at Princeton, Eve Tominey. Tominey is apparently dyslexic and quite supportive of kids with LD's and offered accommodations prior to her daughter's acceptance, though the required accommodations were not labor-intensive. She was impressed with Tominey's diligence and passion. But, I wonder if Tominey is leaning against the wind at Princeton.</p>

<p>Based upon our experiences, my son chose to attend a highly-rate LAC where the dean for disabilities services told me, "If we admitted your son, we're going to do everything we can to make it work." The school gave him 100% extra time, some advice on courses to avoid, a note-taker for courses he requested, pdf versions of assigned reading to use with a screen-reader. It has offered to provide a scribe, although he hasn't availed himself of that but has sometimes called to dictate a paper to me. [We've also paid his HS tutor to record book chapters or articles and email the recordings to him. I think we can get more of that done at the school.]</p>

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<p>Shawbridge, I’m so glad to hear that your son’s school is more enlightened on the relationship between disabilities and education…perhaps the Princeton counsel needs to do his research before making such ridiculous statements! It’s shocking that he suggested she isn’t “qualified” to be at Princeton due to her LD and that outside counsel would use that as a scare tactic to get her to drop the suit. I’m sure it was very difficult for a freshman to hang tough in the face of such an opponent, so good for her! I hope that their new task force is productive and, at a minimum, results in a change to their policy of reviewing ODS requests after the May 1st deadline.</p>

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<p>I realize that this will probably offend some people but…</p>

<p>Why do people with things like ADD and dyslexia get special accommodations? I mean great, with these accommodations they can get better grades in school but once they graduate are their employers going to be required to push back deadlines or give them less work than they give other employees? How is that fair to the employers?</p>

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<p>phade, that is a common misconception I think. Many, if not most, careers are not as reading or writing intensive as college testing is and so one would not necessarily require extra time to perform their job. One of the primary reasons for giving extra time is so that the student can read and comprehend the test questions and write a coherent response. It doesn’t mean they will get better grades than a non-LD student who has the “normal” time limit. They all need to know and understand the material they’re being tested on.</p>

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<p>It’s politically correct.</p>

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<p>It appears there are school that offer special accommodations, why wouldn’t students with LDs go to those schools instead? If at some point schools like Princeton feel they are missing out on getting special students (bright students with LDs), then they would change their policy. </p>

<p>I am not saying OP’s son is taking advantage of the situation at his school, but we have known many students at my kids’ high school who get extra time for testing because of claimed LDs. What about extra costs for accommodations - special equipments, resource to record books - who is suppose to pay for that? Princeton is a private institution, it can set it’s own goal and objective on education. It’s no different than many private secondary schools. My kids’ school doesn’t offer many services for students with LDs, so students with LDs would usually attend public schools where there is more resource funded by the government.</p>

<p>We allow so many law suits, at the end of day we all end up paying for it. There was a case of an Asian Milburn student who sued Princeton for discrimination. That same student was admitted to other top schools (I think Yale and Harvard), but just not Princeton. As people have posted on CC over and over again, it’s about fit. Princeton may not be for everyone, but there are a lot of other schools.</p>

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<p>In most cases, I think the LD is well-documented, confirmed, and known to the schools at the time of admission. Don’t you think that the fact that Princeton doesn’t bother to do a detailed review until after May 1st is their own fault? I don’t think the cost is a major factor for Princeton, as the counsel stated that they have relatively few students with disabilities. Btw, even at public schools where accommodation is mandatory and education an entitlement, parents frequently must continuously advocate for their children to receive the IEP’s they need. My niece was initially refused registration for kindergarten because she was developmentally delayed, even though my sister was providing a full time aide for her…and this was at a public school! It’s time for a more enlightened attitude and for schools to stop “passing the buck”…</p>

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<p>I disagree with that. There was a recent thread where a parent was asking if her son should disclose his LD on his college application. Almost every parent on CC advised her not to, but to disclose it after her son was admitted. How many students have been admitted to top tier colleges without disclosing their LD on their applications. Is it fair to schools to have to come up with funding to accommodate those students after the fact?</p>

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<p>It’s a shame it didn’t get “court tested.” By settling, the college for the most part can continue with the policies in place and the young lady and her family get what they wanted. It really doesn’t change much but I really didn’t expect a different outcome. The “investigation” is just smoke in my opinion. The outcome could perhaps be that accomodations must be evaluated at the time of admissions if the claim stems from accomodation decisions not being made until post-acceptance…which would send families streaming into courts claiming that process is “unfair and creates discrimination in the application process.” People should be careful what they wish for. I do think, as expressed often in these forums, parents and students with LDs need to do their homework when picking colleges and universities.</p>

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<p>We have the Americans With Disabilities Act. It’s against the law not to provide certain accommodations.</p>

<p>I am surprised at some of these responses.</p>

<p>This doesn’t affect me personally. My S had ADD but he handles this privately with meds and has not informed his school or asked for accommodation, but I support kids who do.</p>

<p>Would you deny someone in a wheelchair access and say, “How will they get into their job?”</p>

<p>I have severe asthma. I should have asked for accommodations because I couldn’t get from class to class as quickly as I needed to sometimes. I didn’t, and just wheezed. But those were different times.</p>

<p>Yes, it has been an issue on my job. I am a college prof and at times I have asked for first floor classrooms and offices in buildings that don’t have elevators as well as all classes in the same building (a long story – at my school my department is the only department without its own building. We are poor wandering scholars.)</p>

<p>I am one of the most popular teachers in my department and officially have the lowest drop out rate. </p>

<p>I only offer myself as a case in point.</p>

<p>And if someone has no numbers disability and a school provides the best math/science education do we really want to deny that person an education there because the reading challenges them a bit because of their disability? We are not talking about a cognitive disability that would really make it impossible for the student to understand the material.</p>

<p>Think of it as a deaf student. If that person needed a signer in a court room, for instance, he/she still might be a brilliant lawyer setting an example for other deaf folk.</p>

<p>I think it should be a value of the society to use talents of its citizens to the utmost and provide them with the best education we can. </p>

<p>A disability does not prevent someone from making an enormous contribution in their field.</p>

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<p>oldfort, schools can’t just decide not to provide accommodations. Neither can businesses. The ADA (expecially as recently strengthened by the ADA Amendments Act of 2008) places meaningful obligations upon them. </p>

<p>In my son’s case, he is extremely bright and really wanted to in a school with other bright, intellectually inquisitive kids. He has the equivalent of a supercomputer chip and dial-up modem processing speed for reading and writing, though he has learned to do each of these quite well, but just does these slowly. He does other things, like complex pattern recognition, at blazingly fast speeds and has near perfect recall of what he has heard. I think he wanted to go to Princeton because I went there and loved it and he was more than capable of the intellectual level required. But it wouldn’t have been a fun place for him given the curriculum and the attitude of the administration. However, I don’t believe Princeton (or any other school) can decide that it is exempt from the law and choose to be a school that is LD-unfriendly (as you seem to be suggesting). </p>

<p>I think the real issue is a slow collision between the law and the attitudes of some beknighted universities who are used to getting their own way due to their elite status. When I was at Princeton, while there was an office for students who wanted to study abroad, it was clear that the administration believed that the Princeton curriculum and faculty was the one true way to get an education. So, the dean in charge of deciding whether a student could get credit for studying abroad didn’t believe that study abroad was a worthwhile educational endeavor. To get approval, you thus needed to show that you wanted access to rare manuscripts only available in Rome or Toulouse and that what you wanted to do educationally (in coursework or research) couldn’t be done at Princeton. I don’t know if that attitude has shifted much with respect to study abroad (and there is no legal issue with regard to study abroad), but I see the same attitude in their approach to LDs. They shouldn’t have to sully their curriculum with other kinds of kids. </p>

<p>oldfort, I aslo agree that whenever you create rules like those in the ADA, you do open up incentives for people without LDs to exploit them. My son’s SpEd caseworker was livid about families buying test results later in HS to try to get SAT accommodations for their kids, when “her” kids who really needed the accommodations were sometimes denied. To guard against that, I think both the College Board and the ACT often routinely deny accommodations in the first round (or offer much less than what was requested) to screen out the posers. It makes it harder for the legitimate kids.</p>

<p>With respect to political correctness, it is politically correct to provide lip service to many different kinds of minds and diversity of intellectual styles but that’s about it. It’s not yet politically correct to really do much about it.</p>

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<p>I don’t think the argument is about having a disability or not rather I think the point is not being satisfied with the accomodations offered AFTER the acceptance. Those without disabilities see it as unfair that someone is accepted and then petitions for accomodations and those with disabilities see it that the disabilities should not be considered at the time of admissions and they should be accomodated no matter what. It’s ironic to me that an offer of acceptance comes with the financial aid offer and a decision is made whether or not to accept, yet an offer of acceptance does not come with an accomodations offer which could then be accepted or declined. By way of disclosure I do have a dyslexic son with no other issues who has had an IEP since first grade. As a parent I would absolutely want to know before allowing my son to accept an offer from a college/uni that his needs were in place, much like I would want to ensure that my financial needs were in place.</p>

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<p>I am pleased to read of the outcome of this legal case, and hope Princeton will see the light on accommodating learning disabled students. </p>

<p>The question has been raised as to why should Princeton do so (provide accommodations) when other schools are out there which already have such in place?</p>

<p>I wish to reverse the question. Why should Princeton NOT want to provide such accommodations and allow itself the benefits derived from such students, many of whom are high IQ individuals whose talents have been suppressed by LD/ADD? Since the intricacies of the brain’s wirings are not established, the best we offer such students currently are medications, extra time, keyboards etc, which are shown to work. Yet such basic help may result in a complete re-organization of one’s focus, comprehension, integration. A new Einstein may be born again through such correction, or any of the myriad of true geniuses known to have existed. </p>

<p>Given the state our country and the thinking out of the box that we need on the part of our students to help guide their generation amongst others, Princeton, if anything, should be seeking greater individual thinking aided by it’s teaching mantra. A supported and encouraged ADD or LD student may be just the individual they savor to bring pride through creation, invention, wide social impact and much more to their institution.</p>

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<p>I think you are referring to section 504 of ADA. I am not a lawyer, but I just took the time to read up on it. It covers public schools and schools that receive federal aids (not sure if institutions like Princeton does). A student needs to be labeled in order to receive protection under section 504.</p>

<p>Under section 504, at the postsecondary level

</p>

<p>Recipients in this case are schools that receive aids from the federal government.</p>

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<p>Out of curiosity (no dog in this fight), do the Service Academies (West Point, Air Force, etc.) offer accommodations for LD students? How does that translate into what those graduates are expected to be able to do?</p>

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<p>If bright, talented students with LDs stop applying to Princeton, then maybe Princeton would change its policy in making more accommodations for them. It’s no different than if schools like Princeton see they are missing out on talented students in the income bracket of 150-250k, then it would change its financial aid policy. But clearly, Princeton doesn’t feel like it’s missing out on the kind of students it wants to attract. At the same time, students with LDs are not being shut out of higher education either, just not Princeton.</p>

<p>Disclosure - we don’t have anyone attending Princeton, and H has LD.</p>

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<p>I have a special ed kid…I wonder…how would kids without disabilities do if they had the same accommodations as ld kids?</p>

<p>Not as well as the ld kids because some of the ld kids have higher iqs?</p>

<p>Then…what about the kids without ld but with similar iqs…would they do even better with more accommodations?</p>

<p>What about kids that take speed so they can do better in school…there are quite a few kids that do that now. </p>

<p>Makes me wonder about the grades some people get…</p>

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<p>I will let others debate the Princeton case, but I must point out that 100% extra time is a very blunt instrument that introduces its own inequities. I often have students who receive 100% extra time. (The sudents are given the option of taking the exam in a separate room, and they always take it. Whether they do so because the room is quieter or they do not want to be seen getting different treatment I cannot say.) So far so good. It is notable, however, that the students who get 100% extra time always turn in exams that look much more polished than the typical exam. Whereas half of the students getting the regular amount of time are still working on or looking over their exams when time expires, those with 100% extra time are invariably done when their time expires. (And please do not suggest that I should water down the exam so that no one feels time pressure.) I support allocating extra time to those who need it, but I must repeat that 100% extra time is a very blunt instrument that introduces its own inequities.</p>

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<p>Coase…that is what I was wondering…</p>

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<p>^^I think it’s all outcomes based. For instance the old argument about who is a better prospect, the student that takes the ACT or SAT one time and scores in the 98th percentile or the kid who has to take it three times to reach that level? Those are fine distinctions that take place at the time of admissions. With the retreat from score choice to full disclosure by some of the brass ring colleges I suspect that colleges will move toward disclosure of more information over time. I wonder if the ability to hide extra time on standardized tests will hold up legally over time if accomodations are to be requested of the university. I highly doubt that students who medicate for ADHD will ever come under a microscope because they are medicating themselves and not seeking additional accomodations from the colleges/unis, but those that come into colleges/unis with high school IEPs, extended time on standardized tests, notetakers etc. may someday have to disclose if they wish accomodations upon acceptance…but that is just speculation on my part and only time and the courts will tell. In my non-legal mind the language of the 504 tilts toward the colleges.</p>

<p>As a parent of a dyslexic I do know that he never takes advantage of his available accomodations unless his back is against the wall. He’d prefer not to be differentiated. I suspect “true” LD kids are more like this than kids who take advantage of everything offered.</p>