<p>Hi everyone,</p>
<p>I am a rising senior and am looking at Williams and Princeton as my top two choices.</p>
<p>Could someone expand on the general differences in the student body between the two schools? Did anyone have to make this decision?</p>
<p>What are you envious that williams has and princeton doesnt? what do you think makes princeton a better place?</p>
<p>There is virtually no difference between the classes that ultimately enroll at either institution.</p>
<p>However, at Princeton, there will be more superstars and real geniuses, I’d imagine.</p>
<p>The applicant pool to Williams is highly-self selective: usually the very best students who apply to HYPS, and other exceptionally strong students who are intellectually passionate and curious, and care about getting the best education.</p>
<p>On the other hand, everyone has heard of the amazing financial aid at HYPSM, and therefore virtually anyone of reasonable academic strength can throw an application at P.</p>
<p>Not sure about Princeton, but I’d imagine the student body at Williams to be an eclectic mix–athletes, dramatists, hipsters, hippies–all of them intellectual, all of them laid back.
Williams creates a small and intimate community that’s isolated from “civilization.” As a result, I’d reckon the students are just as ambitious as Princetonians, but not as competitive (in a possibly internecine way).</p>
<p>Looking at the bigger picture, I’ve come to realize that my college is definitely the better “fit” for me, for many of the reasons I’ve described above about Williams.</p>
<p>I’m an Amherst student, but here’s what I “envy” about Princeton:</p>
<ol>
<li>Financial aid</li>
<li>Name recognition</li>
<li>Proximity to home (I live in NYC)</li>
<li>Opportunities to possibly work with recognized leaders in the field (though I understand only the best of the best Princeton students would really have the chance)</li>
</ol>
<p>There are a lot more varsity athletes at Princeton. And probably more pre-professionals due to the engineering school.</p>
<p>Ray-- </p>
<p>Approximately 29% of Princeton students compete on varsity and junior varsity teams. According to this link, almost 40% of Williams students are varsity or junior varsity athletes. [AMHERST-WILLIAMS:</a> The Biggest Little Game in America; Where Winning Breeds Criticism - The New York Times](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/sports/amherst-williams-biggest-little-game-america-where-winning-breeds-criticism.html?pagewanted=all]AMHERST-WILLIAMS:”>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/sports/amherst-williams-biggest-little-game-america-where-winning-breeds-criticism.html?pagewanted=all) </p>
<p>While the existence of the engineering department means that there is obviously a greater percentage of potential engineers at Princeton than at Williams, I wouldn’t say that Princeton is particularly pre-professional. Both schools have wonderful academics and great students and very happy student bodies. I think frankly in terms of making a decision, size and location would be important factors.</p>
<p>Yeah I suppose you’re right, but its just that I view Princeton athletes as more of “real” athletes (even if they’re not looking to become professional athletes) because they compete in D-I. When someone tells me they’re a D-III athlete, I tend to see them as more of a recreational athlete (y’know, just another ordinary student who “happens” to be an athlete rather than someone who the school wanted on a certain team).</p>
<p>Make sure you know about the grading policies of both institutions if you care about your grades. You are almost guaranteed have a higher GPA if you go to Williams. I’m pretty sure most students at Princeton would agree.</p>
<p>kwu:</p>
<p>thanks for your post. You say that there are more superstars and real geniuses at Princeton. I know this might be hard to say, but how would you compare the two schools percentage wise in that category. I would assume that the williams and amherst student bodies are very similar, so what achievements does the “typical Amherst genius” have?</p>
<p>I have done very well in math competitions (AMC, AIME, USAMO) and am very impressed with the math departments at both schools. I don’t know if I would be considered a math genius at either of these schools (or amherst for that matter) but I certainly want to be around peers of similar or higher success in academics/intelligence.</p>
<p>randombetch: do you say that because you think Williams is easier? Williams actually is known for its grade deflation (and something that I am not thrilled about at either school). I told one of my friends (who is at Duke, but has friends all over including williams and princeton) that I was looking at Williams and he said dont go there because it is really hard, they have no grade inflation. he said that at princeton, even with the new limits on As, it hasn’t really changed anything except that the kids who were not deserving an A- and are now getting B+. he said that there are very few people who got kicked from an A to an A-.</p>
<p>I cannot say how Harvard Law looks at princeton, but I know that HLS adds ~.10 to a williams graduate’s GPA. I read somewhere else on college confidential that it is considered the 2nd lowest GPA.</p>
<p>With regards to GPA concerns, the discrepancy isn’t that great.</p>
<p>[Princeton</a> University](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/Princeton.html]Princeton”>Princeton University)
[Williams</a> College GPA Trends](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/williams.html]Williams”>http://www.gradeinflation.com/williams.html)</p>
<p>With regards to whether you’ll feel comfortable, among intellectual peers, you won’t have to worry. ray121988’s assessment is correct. Although recruited athletes make up a larger proportion of the Williams class, I’ve discovered that a vast majority of the male and female athletes I’ve come to know at Amherst are all what one calls “scholar athletes” who care deeply about their academic and intellectual growth and have real ambitions as high as those of anyone else.</p>
<p>However, because Princeton is a Division I school, and its victories in competitive sports–especially within the Ivy League–have real world consequences for alumni giving, endowment growth, and prestige recognition, I’m under the impression that Princeton is willing to give more leeway to a large number of athletes who aren’t as academically or intellectually competitive as their peers.</p>
<p>I may have misspoken when I made that generalization, since I neglected to realize that Harvard likely poaches most of the wunderkinds. But, what has deeply impressed me from my time at Amherst is that every single person I know has had some interesting life experience or story to tell, or some unusual talent or quirk. Moreover, even the students who party hard and have made a reputation for themselves are intellectually earnest and insightful. Promise isn’t something one can always see or hear from someone, but I’m of the opinion that the admissions committees at both schools make offers only to the most promising men and women.</p>
<p>I strongly recommend visiting both institutions if you haven’t already, to get a sense of how professors teach and how students respond and interact, inside the classroom and outside.</p>
<p>kwu:</p>
<p>I have visited both campuses and maybe oddly, I have spent time in a Williams classroom but not much time with students, and I have spent free time with students at princeton who I played baseball with in highschool. I cannot say that the campus of either has a big (enough) pull on me to make my decision (for example, I would never go to columbia, even though it is a great school, because of NYC)</p>
<p>Because I was only there for one day at Williams, I cannot really get an accurate gauge of the students there. I didn’t see any overt brilliance there, but 1 hour is really not enough to get a good judge of students and their accomplishments. At Amherst, how accomplished would you say they are in terms of national competitions? Do you know anyone who qualified for the USAMO or the International Math (or Physics) Olympiad?</p>
<p>As for harvard, I would agree with you that they steal many “wunderkids,” but I know many very smart students who did not get in because harvard has fewer than 30 “recruited” math spots, causing the very talented “spillover” (if you want to call it that) to go on to other great places, mostly universities though. Also, some wunderkids do not find harvard attractive at all, like me :). </p>
<p>I think that it is pretty unquestionable that princeton has better mathematicians, but would you say that they are much more talented per capita than Williams? Princeton consistently ranks within the top 5 in the putnam math contest and williams ranked 14th last year. However, these teams are made up of only 3 students, and many of the best students at HYPSM are doing structured graduate work as undergraduates, so it is not surprising necessarily that they would be able to field a better team.</p>
<p>If it’s math you are after, Williams won’t compare. It’s Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Berkeley etc. But art history for example I believe Williams might be superior. My kids both hated the idea of an LAC, they thought they were too much like high school. But if you like the smaller size, compare departments.</p>
<p>Go to Princeton.</p>
<p>I have a friend who’s pretty plugged into the math scene, and from what I understand, the (almost overwhelming) majority of top math and physics kids go to MIT, but the next two biggest destinations are Princeton and Harvard, which split a pool of strong math kids pretty equally, followed fairly closely by Stanford. The idea that Harvard takes more than Princeton is wrong, according to him (and this can be seen in last year’s Putnam results; the two schools performed almost identically). After MIT, there’s no school that clearly has stronger math students at the top of its math department than Princeton.</p>
<p>It’s hard to measure the “average” strength of Princeton’s math students, but it’s got about 70 math majors at a time and, last year, 11 of them got at least an honorable mention on the Putnam. If its math students are roughly normally distributed in ability (and of course they may not be), that implies a pretty phenomenal average ability level. At any rate I can promise you it’ll be substantially higher than the level at Williams. And this is probably true in other disciplines, too.</p>
<p>Moreover, the math faculty at Princeton are arguably the strongest in the world.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, Williams has 116 math majors, and princeton only has 70. I do not know why that may be, but I read an interesting article put out by the math department. <a href=“Ingrid Daubechies' homepage”>Ingrid Daubechies' homepage; Maybe it is because the Williams math department is easier, or maybe the requirement to call yourself a major are easier. Does anyone have a list of past princeton math majors and what they are doing now? Williams has one that I have found to be quite useful in my own personal assessment of the department.</p>
<p>As for a normal distribution curve, i have really seen both sides (meaning usamo/imo allstar v hardworking aime qualifier) go to princeton, but I would agree that the average talent level is probably quite high. </p>
<p>What I have seen is that among HPM is that it entirely depends on the student. your more rounded math all-stars go to harvard if also interested humanities (or want to take math 55) or princeton if they live and breathe math and physics, but are concerned about life at MIT.</p>
<p>This will be hard, but if Princeton’s math program is a 10, what would you put Williams at? This might be a better post on the williams board, unless someone knows the williams math department very well.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Really? That’s interesting if it’s true. My experience suggests that, if anything, the opposite is true, but honestly I don’t think there’s much of a divide of that nature between the two schools.</p>
<p>That article is interesting. I’ve heard that Princeton’s math department isn’t incredibly nurturing, and the article supports that. I think that Williams’ math department is definitely easier, too, and that could be part of it.</p>
<p>Okay, if Williams and Princeton have the same average GPA, then it obviously takes more work and more brilliance to get a high GPA at Princeton.</p>
<p>Princeton also has indisputably the best math department in the country. </p>
<p>If all else is equal…
If you care about grades more than learning, go to Williams.
If you care about learning more than grades, come to Princeton.</p>
<p>i think the main difference for me is location. Williams is in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere. Princeton is as well, but you still have the NYC, Philly outlet so you get the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>I’d also venture to say (this is just my opinion) that Princeton has more ethnic and socioeconomic diversity than Williams and caters more to those underrepresented groups. Williams has no real name recognition so the applicant pool is smaller but also more upper-middle class and WASPy. Princeton has that as well, but in recent years they’ve seemed to be able to attract more kids from different backgrounds.</p>
<p>randombetch: why do you say that it obviously takes more work and brilliance to get a high GPA at princeton? according to the princeton review, williams students spend more time working than princeton students. it seems like you are making a baseless claim. is the next one that princeton students are brighter so they don’t have to work as hard? how many hours a week would you say you work and what is your major (I assume that you are a princeton student)? i find it unfortunate that williams has this reputation, but it was something that i was aware of before regardless of its truthfulness.</p>
<p>and then regarding learning, what are you basing that on? the thing that williams is noted for above all else is the dedication of its professors having constant student interaction. are you saying that somehow the ciriculum is weaker at williams? otherwise it seems that one could make the exact opposite statement and support it better. i know that as harvard is trying to revamp its undergraduate education (which i think is bad personally) and they cite williams and amherst as the examples they want to move forward to. (and just as fairness to princeton, I recognize that it would be unwise for harvard to publicly cite princeton as offering a better undergraduate education than it because they are much more locked in competition with princeton for students than they are williams and amherst.)</p>
<p>Sorry, tboyle, but if you choose Williams, this is the kind of nonsense that you’ll have to deal with on a regular basis.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Percent of undergraduates receiving Pell grants:
Williams College: 14 %
Princeton University: 8 %</p>
<p>[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/liberal-arts-economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/liberal-arts-economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools)
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools)</p>
<p>**Williams College<a href=“2012”>/B</a>, CDS:
African American: 10.5 percent
Asian American: 11.8 percent
Hispanic: 9.9 percent
Native American: 0.7 percent
International: 10 percent</p>
<p>**Princeton University<a href=“2012”>/B</a>, CDS:
African American: 7.5 percent
Asian American: 16.6 percent
Hispanic: 7.5 percent
Native American: 0.4 percent
International: 11.3 percent</p>
<p>i knew someone was going to try to swat me down with stats. :p</p>
<p>is there any data on overall minority happiness? how about retention rates?</p>
<p>Can anyone compare the social life and overall atmosphere at the two schools? Maybe the type of people you’d expect to prefer which school</p>