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probably. but based on what? A lot of students that used to be quite brilliant in HS don’t always end up in the upper quartile at Cal or in other schools. Some students’ motivation just change the moment they enter college or during half way of their college program.</p>
<p>sorry, I meant upper quartile of Frosh matriculants. And yes absolutely, basic ‘smarts’ won’t cover work ethic once one matriculates. Which is all the more reason to choose P’ton. As mathboy pointed out earlier, getting research $$ from Cal is not a problem for the 'strongest" students, which must mean it IS a problem for the average student – which not true at the rich, rich HYPSM et al. And that is my point. I truly believe that the average student is better off at an Ivy. The Regents are literally killing Cal by a thousand cuts (to make their decision to open Merced look brilliant).</p>
<p>Are we forgetting something?</p>
<p>Princeton ChE’s are REQUIRED to do a senior year research project to fulfill their senior thesis requirement in order to graduate. During junior year the Princeton ChE’s are presented with dozens of potential research projects and advisors for the senior year thesis. It is there for the taking. In addition, if there is space availble from the large amount of curriculum requirements, the ChE student can do a Junior year Research project and get credit as a class - something which would be encouraged by the ChE administration. </p>
<p>The Princeton ChE student works one on one with a full Princeton Professor on these projects - and many times the professor is among the foremost authorities in the field covered by the research project.</p>
<p>Onecircuit, I don’t think we are forgetting, as that goes under the general trend that a lot of top schools require more of their students than Cal, but the resources are there at Berkeley.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, I agree that for the student who chooses to be less aggressive in looking for opportunity, Cal is not great, and the average student may get more research thrust on them. But my question is how do they expect to survive research if they haven’t mastered fundamentals well, and are not impressive enough to be considered by a single Cal professor for research opportunity? </p>
<p>Only the strong students have much of a shot at researching in any meaningful way anyway.</p>
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<p>This is very true. At Princeton et al, part of the reason that so many students participate in research is that they are the strongest students naturally–that’s why they’re at Princeton. Some people assert that Berkeley has 25,000 undergrads and there aren’t enough research opportunities for all of them, which is true. But most of those 25k don’t even want to do research. On top of that, Berkeley has some 10,000 grad students, among a great many other postdocs and researchers, that open up opportunities for undergrads.</p>
<p>Obviously it’s still easier at Princeton, but the situation isn’t as bad at Berkeley as some want to think.</p>
<p>It’s great that this thread is 9 pages and most of it isn’t a “Berkeley-Princeton war”–not the typical compare-useless-stats-and-everyone-gets-angry kind of thread. :)</p>
<p>Honestly, a ton of undergrads at Berkeley want to get their degrees and get out of there. Some came to play sports. Additionally, this is true of plenty students at an Ivy League. </p>
<p>One of the big differences between Berkeley and Princeton is that the average Berkeley undergrad needs to do a lot less to get in. The Princeton math majors are almost all strong, yet a majority of Berkeley math majors are not (then again, the strongest studens run into each other in the hardest courses). Princeton is a very different place, with a very different student culture, and many unique strengths. </p>
<p>Phantasmagoric hits it right on - they REQUIRE more of Princeton, Caltech, etc students because they are on average better equipped. Hence a research project may be required.</p>
<p>Just wanted to throw it out there, but I chose Berkeley over Princeton.</p>