<p>Promise. If you loved it when you visited you will not regret your choice. Good luck.</p>
<p>"If anything, Yale is more socially unwelcoming/elitist in the sense that it has a lower percentage of students on financial aid and a higher percentage of students from private/prep schools." </p>
<p>I don't think so. Princeton is much less diverse than Yale. Columbia and Yale are generally considered to be the most diverse Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>As Jerome Karabel, a Harvard graduate and the author of the Chosen Few, detailing the history of the admissions process at HYP, noted:</p>
<p>In a study of the percentage of low-income students in 2000 (as measured by the proportion of federal Pell Grants - need-based awards that do not have to be repaid and make up the bulk of many poorer students' aid) at the nation's leading universities, the Big Three were found to be among the nation's least economically diverse schools. Of the 40 universities studied, Harvard and Princeton ranked 39th and 38th respectively, with Yale at 25th.</p>
<p>once again, you're arguing a point that has already been lost. anyone who even occasionally reads the yale daily news knows how much pressure yale students have been applying to the administration to match recent financial aid reforms at harvard and princeton. princeton started the arms race in 2001 when it announced it was going loan-free, allowing all students to graduate literally debt-free. yale has still not even come close to matching this. u.s. news numbers bear this out, as harvard and princeton top yale in the "best values" rankings, thanks in part to appreciably higher number of students receiving need-based grants. princeton tops all schools in its "least debt" rankings.</p>
<p>as for diversity, princeton ranks higher than yale in two significant recent rankings: first, in the journal of blacks in higher education's rankings of leading universities on their success in integrating african americans, where princeton is #3 and yale #13 (with harvard, brown, and columbia in between, meaning yale is in the bottom half of the ivies). and second, in hispanic magazine's top 25 colleges for latinos, where princeton is #2 and yale #4.</p>
<p>finally, the karabel book is just called "the chosen."</p>
<p>Students on Pell Grants =/= Diversity</p>
<p>In the book Best Colleges and Universities for African American students, Columbia and Yale are listed as the only Ivies to make the list of the top 100. The other data on scholarships is quite immaterial as well; there are many schools much less wealthy than H, Y, or P that have more diversity despite giving out a much smaller amount of grants or debt relief. Everyone knows Columbia and Yale are the most diverse Ivies. Whether you have a ranking that says differently is besides the point, as there are many "rankings". The Pell Grant information clearly shows Princeton and Harvard lag behind Yale, which is a reflection of Yale's greater socioeconomic diversity.</p>
<p>the book you reference was published in 1998. the jbhe and hispanic magazine rankings are much more recent, the latter having been published within the last month. and yale certainly does not have "greater socioeconomic diversity." according to u.s. news's best values rankings, while 50% of students at both harvard and princeton receive need-based grants, only 41% of students at yale do. that puts yale below not only harvard and princeton, but below all five other ivies, which range from 48-42%.</p>
<p>I can speak for that with all truth: Princeton's financial aid (or Scholarship?) is just simply amazing, but its academics is really really demanding ! ! !</p>
<p>Yale measures its "needs-based grants" differently than other schools. You can't make a direct comparison this way. Also, the book rankings are far more comprehensive than the magazine rankings, which are just publicity pieces for their respective magazines more than anything else.</p>
<p>The Chosen statistics clearly show Princeton and Harvard lag far behind Yale, as well as 37 other top universities, in socioeconomic diversity.</p>
<p>Visit the campuses and see for yourself.</p>
<p>again, not to interrupt, but the proportion of Yalies on financial aid should be increasing due to the new measures implemented last year in which families making less than 45,000 per year don't have to contribute and some sort of massively scaled discount upwards to $60,000 per year. In fact, on a recent article sounded a little too good:</p>
<p>"Yale offers aid full or part to 60% of undergrads and its financial aid budget for 2006-07 is approximately $59 million, an 8% increase over last year. In addition, all international students will get tickets for one return trip home every year." I doubt that it is 60%, but I would definitely bet it is increasing.<br>
<a href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1490065.cms%5B/url%5D">http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1490065.cms</a></p>
<p>Also, Princeton and Yale are both very diverse.</p>
<p>weak stuff once again, posterX. i rest my case.</p>
<p>I think our resident Princeton rep. just dominated this new Yalie guy.</p>
<p>(said the Stanford frosh, with his nose pressed against the Ivy window, peering in!)</p>
<p>Posterx:</p>
<p>To make your point on diversity, you are relying on a book written in the age of Windows 98, which has to be the admissions equivalent of the Stone Age. Your source is almost a decade old. Nearly ten freshmen classes have come and gone since it was published. Circumstances have changed dramatically since 1998. In fact, the entire admissions landscape has changed even within the last five years. You really need a much better source to support this particular point you are trying to make. A school's diversity can change a great deal with just one class, not to mention eight or ten.</p>
<p>Also, you have given no support allowing anyone to reasonably dismiss magazine rankings as just publicity pieces for their respective magazines more than anything else. Someone else could just as easily dismiss The Chosen as a mere publicity piece for its author. If the rankings are current and relevant to the topic being discussed, and their basic methodologies sound, then as far as I am concerned they are quite a lot more useful than a book on admission written nearly a decade ago.</p>
<p>zephyr, my guess is you are too busy at Stanford to have your nose pressed against any window. Also, due to stop raining out here and return us to the standard fantastic Bay Area weather.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everyone knows
Columbia and Yale are the most diverse Ivies
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Everyone knows you're full of it</p>
<p>"Everyone knows Columbia and Yale are the most diverse Ivies."</p>
<p>Hmm...let's look at this.</p>
<p>Columbia:</p>
<p>Nearly 40% of our undergraduate student body identify themselves as students of color. Diversity has long been recognized as one of Columbias hallmarks. Recently, Black Enterprise Magazine ranked Columbia as the top Ivy League university for African American students. Hispanic Magazine ranked Columbia as one of the top 10 colleges in America for Latino/a students.</p>
<p>~60% White</p>
<p>Yale:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/factsheet.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.yale.edu/oir/factsheet.html</a></p>
<p>Ethnicity %
Asian 13%
African-American/Black 7%
Hispanic/Latino 6%
Native American 1%
White & Other 73% </p>
<p>Princeton:</p>
<p>Nonresident aliens (international) = 423 = 8.88%
Black = 403 = 8.46%
American Indian or Alaska Native = 37 = .777%
Asian or Pacific Islander = 623 = 13.08%
Hispanic = 325 = 6.82%
White, non-Hispanic = 2950 = 61.96%
Total 4761</p>
<p>Wow. Yale isn't even as diverse as Princeton. :0 I agree with you about Columbia, but Yale....I don't think so. Let's take a look at the other Ivies, shall we?</p>
<p>Harvard:</p>
<p>Caucasian: 63.5%
Minorities: ~36.5%</p>
<p>Cornell:</p>
<p>Currently, more than a quarter (28 percent) of our undergraduates are African American, Asian American, Latino, and Native American students, or from multi-racial backgrounds. International students from some 120 countries make up another 8 percent of the total student population.
~72% White</p>
<p>Dartmouth:</p>
<p>Students of Color comprise 27.4% of the undergraduate body
6.2% African-American students
12% Asian American students
6.3% Latino/a students
2.9% Native American students </p>
<p>~73% White </p>
<p>University of Pennslyvania:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts.php</a></p>
<p>About 39.2 percent of those accepted for admission to the Class of 2009 are Black, Hispanic, Asian, or Native American.</p>
<p>~61% White</p>
<p>Brown:</p>
<p>About 28% of undergrads are people of color.
~72% white </p>
<p>So from this information, yes Columbia is the most diverse Ivy followed by UPenn, not Yale. I love Yale (it was one of my top choices along with Princeton), but, posterX, your statements aren't true at all so I just wanted to make things clear. Princeton isn't that far behind in diversity neither is Harvard. Check the validity of your statements before you post, so you don't deceive prospective applicants who might be reading these posts. :)</p>
<p>Those numbers are wrong for Yale. You quoted University wide ethnicity (not undergrads), EXCLUDING internationals from the Yale Fact Sheet. I saw that page. For a breakdown of the college look here:
<a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/open/pdf_public/W004_Enroll_RaceGen.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.yale.edu/oir/open/pdf_public/W004_Enroll_RaceGen.pdf</a></p>
<p>You will see that Yale College is 55% caucasian, not 73%, so don't go jumping the gun on saying how homogenous yale is. Again, this is not a defense of anything PosterX wrote (because I am not going to compare all colleges), but I think you were very misleading. Hope this clears it up. I think some of the sheets you quote include and some don't include "other". for instance.</p>
<p>edit: from the yale admissions webpage, you get different numbers - 30% minorities and 9% international, which means that the caucasian population is around 61%.<br>
<a href="http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/facts/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/facts/index.html</a></p>
<p>Crimsonbulldog: Yes, that does clear things up. I wasn't being misleading. I was just quoting what was the school website. I even gave you the websites from where I received said information. I didn't see any proof from posterX (which is why I assumed he was trying to be misleading). </p>
<p>Isn't the term "other" supposed to mean people who say they aren't affliated with any race? If so, then this percentage of people are really, really, super small (usually around .5% or so).</p>
<p>"Other" can also be students who don't want to indicate their race. So if you group these students with caucasians (which probably overestimates the numbers of caucasians since, I presume, many "others" are actually not caucasian), then you would get around 67.5% of the undergrad body of Yale, excluding international, or about 61% of undergrads including internationals. This is the figure given by the admissions office as they probably assumed, as I did, that many of the "others" were caucasian. Looking back over your numbers, I think many of them might be quoted for the undergrad body excluding internationals. The Princeton percentage includes internationals. </p>
<p>An interesting article today in the YDN, which I posted in the Yale forum, states that Princeton and Yale respectivelt enroll the lowest percentage of low income students (Yale at 10.2% - don't know Princeton) in the Ivy. The highest percentage is 11.3%. By low income, I mean a family making less than 42,000 per year. </p>
<p>some early demographic info on princeton 2010 admits:</p>
<p>Admitted students come from all 50 states and Washington, D.C., with California having the largest representation in the class of 2010, followed in order by New Jersey, New York and Texas. International students represent 9.7 percent of those admitted to the class and come from 53 countries, including Botswana, Colombia, Cyprus, Denmark, Vietnam, Israel, Trinidad and Tobago, Finland, Korea and Zimbabwe.</p>
<p>Of the students offered admission, 52 percent are men and 48 percent are women; 44 percent are from minority backgrounds, including those who identified themselves as bi-racial or multi-racial; and 9.9 percent are children of Princeton alumni.</p>
<hr>
<p>"We paid particular attention to students from families where no one had a college degree," Rapelye added. "Over the last three years, we have admitted a larger group of students from families with incomes below the national median than in the past. We believe that Princeton's generous financial aid policy, which replaces loans with grants, is the best in the country. It makes it possible for students from all income levels to attend Princeton, and it allows all students who receive financial aid to graduate with no indebtedness." </p>
<p>At the time admission letters were mailed, 51 percent of the admitted applicants were offered aid, though the University expects the percentage of students on aid will rise to about 54 percent.</p>
<p>Sixty-one percent of the admitted students come from public schools, while 30 percent are from private schools and 9 percent attend religiously-based schools. Five of the admitted applicants were educated at home.</p>