<p>My first visit last week to both of them was inconclusive, and I probably won't be able to do the Preview weekend at Princeton because it conflicts with extracurriculars that I lead and the USNCO exam. Let's be unconventional here.</p>
<p>Why would I go to Yale? And why wouldn't I go to Princeton? (this is still for you princeton guys and gals)</p>
<p>Btw I'm majoring in Molecular Biology and have a deep interest in math and history as well.</p>
<p>I had a similar choice to make a few months ago when I was considering whether to apply for a likely letter at Princeton or at Yale (I'm a recruited athlete). Both schools are absolutely wonderful and I knew that I could be happy at either one. But because I had the choice, I felt a lot of pressure to choose wisely. I ultimately chose Princeton, and I'm sure that I won't regret it.</p>
<p>On my recruiting trips to both schools, I discovered that the Yale and Princeton have relatively similar student bodies. The students at both schools seemed remarkably engaged, funny, bright, opinionated. Unsurprising, perhaps, because many, many applicants apply to both schools. As a result, I found myself choosing based primarily on differences in campus/location and the relative strengths of academic programs at each school where my interests lie. </p>
<p>Like the OP, I am very interested in molecular biology, as well as the sciences in general. I was highly impressed by Princeton's lab facilities, and by the professor who was teaching the class I got to sit in on. I also found Princeton's Integrated Science curriculum (see <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/integratedscience/)%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/integratedscience/)</a>, which is unique to Princeton, very appealing. The university's recent investment in Neuroscience only furthered my impression of Princeton's remarkable commitment to the sciences. For anyone considering a major in the Sciences, I cannot imagine a better place to be than Princeton. The OP mentioned math as well-- Princeton has quite possibly the best undergraduate math department in the country. I would say that Yale, on the other hand, is much more humanities-oriented than Princeton is.</p>
<p>So, even if you like Princeton and Yale's environments equally (I much preferred Princeton's contained campus and the town of Princeton to Yale's somewhat discontinuous campus in New Haven), I would argue strongly your academic interests align very nicely with Princeton's greatest strengths.</p>
<p>ahh. I felt the same way academically as you hbart724, but I like everything social about Yale better. I am perhaps confronted with the hardest of academic questions: Academics or Social Life? I prefer Yale's residential colleges, food, social scene, and extracurricular opportunities, but I feel that Princeton is the better Academic fit. Has anyone had to make such a choice?!</p>
<p>for someone who is interested in both math and mol bio, princeton has probably the best graduate quantitative biology department in the country. And undergrads get to take advantage of all of the faculty members and classes. I have taken ~6 graduate classes during my time here, with no problem. Yale, while they are building their science program, has several years before the new campus will be ready. </p>
<p>definitely try the integrated science program, which is completely unique, if you like both math and bio.</p>
<p>why do you like the social life at yale better?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Academics or Social Life? I prefer Yale's residential colleges, food, social scene, and extracurricular opportunities, but I feel that Princeton is the better Academic fit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If the magnitude of your preference for Yale's social environment is relatively large, I'd say choose Yale. The academic difference may exist, but is ultimately small. You'll get a fine education in molecular biology, math, and history at each, and your prospects for medical school (if that is where your interests lie) will be equal. Your quality of life over the next four years, however, could very well vary significantly; and that is the variable upon which, between Princeton and Yale, I believe you ought to choose.</p>
<p>the urban environment, the residential colleges, also the food. I don't really like having the social life at Princeton being centered around the eating clubs.
Course to your comment ec1234 about yale's new campus being ready. After freshman year, which i perceive as not too deep in one's intended major, I will be taking a 2 year leave for a religious mission as I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (colloquially Mormon), which will make my sophomore year 3 years from now. Also, Princeton appears to me as more of a drinking campus than Yale (at least drinking integral to much of the social scence) of which I will take no part.</p>
<p>Also wondering, I have been told that I wouldn't be able to double major at Princeton. Thoughts?</p>
<p>Remi10001: First of all, yes, it is true that you won't be able to double major here. I regard this as a good thing; I couldn't imagine going here and double majoring. It would require so many classes in two fields as well as two theses (!) that I feel I wouldn't be able to sufficiently explore courses in other areas during my junior and senior years. Usually they will tell you, "If you have time to double major, write a better thesis," which reflects a general philosophy of education that's a little bit different than at Yale: they really want you to get a liberal arts education and encourage you to take classes diverse areas, but at the same time they expect a really high-quality thesis in your concentration at the end. For example, a creative thesis is usually a novel, and sometimes these get published. You can, however, get a certificate (or several), which is essentially a minor. I'm a philosophy concentrator and am getting a finance certificate.
In the end I feel that, once you've picked one thing that you're going to be really good at, it doesn't matter whether you call what else you study a major or a minor or a certificate or whatever; it'll all look the same on your complete transcript. Moreover, I should add that you're definitely allowed to fuse your certificate subject into your thesis/JP or even create your own concentration (though the latter can be difficult). </p>
<p>Eating clubs/social life: Somehow I really doubt that drinking takes on a noticeably greater role at Princeton than at other colleges; the eating clubs just make it hard to be secretive about it (thus just easier to notice). A lot of people go to eating club parties and don't drink (me included at times), and there is a whole lot more to an eating club than just parties on Thursday and Saturday. I actually prefer the clubs to Yale's residential colleges; they're so unique, have more history behind them, and best of all, they're student-run, and easily so. It's far easier to take the initiative to get something done in a club than in a college - there's less bureaucracy and more people whose interests align with yours. I came to like the eating clubs; the image of the eating club is rarely the reality. </p>
<p>That said, it's unfair to say the social scene revolves around the eating clubs - or any one thing in particular. We have residential colleges too, you know. I would say the social scene involves 3 sorts of organizations: eating clubs, the colleges, and other student organizations (theater, dance groups, sports teams, Whig-Clio, etc). It's pretty easy to find the right fit, and the system is very fluid. At Yale I feel like you would get to know 1/12 of the student body really well, but the rest, not so much. At Princeton, it would be odd not to have good friends all over campus.</p>
<p>Lastly, I have eaten all around Princeton and in Yale's colleges. The food is <em>way</em> better in the eating clubs (and it's improving in the Princeton colleges as well).</p>
<p>Hope this helps, and hope to see you next fall.</p>
<p>Yale is much stronger in biological sciences -- it does about $400M in federal bio research per year, versus just $100M per year at Princeton. If you adjust for the # of undergraduate science majors, Yalies have a huge advantage in terms of getting into the best laboratories and having more resources at their disposal. Yale also dominates its peers in history, and although Princeton is also strong in that regard, Yale holds an edge. Both are good for math.</p>
<p>See <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/5140457-post6.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/5140457-post6.html</a> for a more detailed analysis, e.g., how 13 of Yale's biological science programs were ranked among the top 10, versus just 10 of Harvard's, 10 of UCSF's, 10 of Johns Hopkins's, 10 of Duke's, 8 of Stanford's, 6 of UCSD's, 5 of UPenn's, 4 of Berkeley's, 3 of Caltech's, and 3 of MIT's, and even fewer of Princeton's.</p>
<p>Remi, in general, I dislike these college X vs. college Y threads, but the above poster is famous for his/her exaggerations, so Ill post. If your particular interest is molecular biology, Princetons program is very strong. The following is a new ranking of graduate programs rather than undergraduate but is at least indicative of the strength of the departments and suggests what you might have access to as an undergraduate..</p>
<p>Molecular</a> Biology - Biological Sciences - Best Graduate Schools - Education - USNews</p>
<p>Youll see that Princeton and Yale are equally strong in this area, though both fall behind some other powerhouses in terms of reputation. Yale has a very strong life sciences program but Princeton has great strength in the area of molecular biology in which you say you are interested. </p>
<p>Princeton</a> University - Department of Molecular Biology</p>
<p>By the way, here is some additional information (from the same ranking) about history and math at Princeton and its peers.</p>
<p>Search</a> - Math - Best Graduate Schools - Education - USNews</p>
<p>Search</a> - History - Best Graduate Schools - Education - USNews</p>
<p>Congratulations on your acceptances!</p>
<p>Mathematics</a> Department - Princeton University</p>
<p>[url=<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/history/%5Dhome%5B/url">http://www.princeton.edu/history/]home[/url</a>]</p>
<p>The US News figures are based only on surveys, and therefore are primarily a reflection of department size. The figures I cited above are based on actual data -- see the post I linked to.</p>
<p>
<p>"and therefore are primarily a reflection of department size"</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is silly.</p>
<p>The recently-released U.S. News Graduate School rankings are based on surveys, that is true, and while it is also true that larger programs may have more visibility in the academic community, it is certainly a gross exaggeration to say that the survey results are nothing more than a reflection of department size. Im afraid this simply fits a pattern with this poster in which any study or survey results are dismissed as irrelevant or impossibly flawed if they dont put Yale at the top of the list. By the way, size would not be an issue here at all, unless this poster believes that Yales molecular biology, history and math departments are so small relative to their peers that they must not be getting the respect they deserve.</p>
<p>The most widely-respected rankings of PhD programs are the NRC rankings which, as Ive noted before, wont be available until sometime later this year. Those studies are detailed enough even for our poster here and are based on quantifiable measures. The last time they were done was a decade ago but at that time, Princeton fared quite well. Across all science and humanities departments reviewed in that study, the following rankings were developed. </p>
<p>1Berkeley (32 distinguished programs)
2Stanford (28 distinguished programs)
3Harvard (25 distinguished programs)
4Princeton (24 distinguished programs)
5MIT (20 distinguished programs)
6Cornell (19 distinguished programs)
6Yale (19 distinguished programs)
8Columbia (18 distinguished programs)
9Michigan (15 distinguished programs)
10Caltech (14 distinguished programs)</p>
<p>I just noticed that Berkeley has analyzed the new USNWR Graduate School rankings in a slightly different way and has posted them on its website here: They might be of interest.</p>
<p>Remi, academically, youll be fine at either school, but try to see through the laughably over-the-top exaggerations and distortions from certain posters on these threads.</p>
<p>I've got a question regarding drinking at Princeton. My son is facing the HYP decision and, like Remi, is a non-drinker. It seemed to us that with drinking centered around the Street, and with sub-free housing as a choice, it would actually be easier at Princeton to find friends who are interested in other activities. Sure, there will be kids in the sub-free dorms who go out and party, but it seems those who don't want to would be easier to find. Would you current students agree with that?</p>
<p>PtonGrad, NRC #s are actually from 1993. That's 15 years ago, not 10. And although size isn't the most important factor, it is a very significant one in affecting the survey-based rankings (NRC is a survey-based ranking as well, actually, so I don't see your point). Just take Caltech or Yale as examples. They don't always show up at the top in the survey-based rankings, since they tend to have fewer faculty in the sciences than Berkeley, but if you look at quality-based rankings like Sciencewatch, Caltech and Yale are tops. Please refer to my previous link for details.</p>
<p>In any case, the best way to make a decision is to visit for 2-3 days and talk with as many students and faculty as possible - as you can tell from the various figures out there, the rankings mean very little unless you know how to analyze them.</p>
<p>I would estimate that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the kids in sub free don't drink.</p>
<p>the princeton molbio department is certainly smaller than that of yale (if you inlcude the hospital, which the rankings do) For biomedical science, yale is certainly better, but for quantitative biology, Princeton has one of the best, if not the best, faculty in the country.</p>
<p>Are you sure, EC? I'm asking in part because the COHE 2007 Bioinformatics & Computational Biology (same as quantitative bio) faculty research quality rankings are as follows:</p>
<ol>
<li>U. of California at San Diego (2006 ranking: #3 tie with Duke)
2 Yale U. (2006 ranking: #1)
3 U. of California at San Francisco (2006 ranking: #2)
4 Boston U.
5 U. of Pennsylvania (2006 ranking: #9)
6 U. of Texas Health Science Center at Houston
7 U. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
8 New York U.
9 Duke U. (2006 ranking: #3 tie with UCSD)
10 Rutgers U. at New Brunswick</li>
</ol>
<p>and in the related fields:</p>
<p>Genetics 2007:</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard U.
2 Stanford U.
3 Yale U.
4 U. of California at San Francisco
5 Columbia U.
6 U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
7 U. of Wisconsin at Madison
8 Weill Medical College, New York City
9 Tufts U.
10 U. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas</li>
</ol>
<p>Biophysics 2007:</p>
<p>1 Stanford U.
2 Harvard U.
3 Yale U.
4 California Institute of Technology
5 U. of California at Berkeley
6 Columbia U.
7 U. of Virginia
8 U. of California at San Francisco
9 U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
10 Vanderbilt U.</p>
<p>I'm not saying Princeton is bad - it is clearly one of the top undergraduate science programs in the country, along with Yale and Caltech - I'm just pointing out that places like U-California, Penn, Duke, Caltech and Yale seem, to me, to be much more renowned in this area.</p>
<p>
<p>(NRC is a survey-based ranking as well, actually, so I don't see your point)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, thats not true. The NRC study (which was last published in 1995) is not a simple reputational survey as the poster is suggesting. Rather, it is an analysis of numerous statistical measures of quality and is widely considered the gold-standard in academic assessment at the graduate level. </p>
<p>As for posterXs constant references to the COHE reports, readers should know the following. The surveys he quotes above are not from the Chronicle of Higher Education (COHE) but are the work of a private firm that has been seriously criticized by the Chronicle for the weakness of its methods. You may read about it here:</p>
<p>Look, the issue is not whether Yale has a good molecular biology department. It does. So does Princeton. Neither of them is as prominent as those at some other schools. I simply object to the constant distortions and misleading characterizations. Exaggerated claims like the following dont inspire much confidence in a posters credibility and dont help students trying to assess the schools to which theyve been accepted:</p>
<p>
<p>Good point - Yale is a unique experience that isn't replicated anywhere else on the planet, and many people would choose it even if it were 50 times more expensive than any other university program in the world. (But of course, it's actually less expensive than anywhere else if you look at financial aid spending per aid student).
</p>
<p>
<p> [quote=posterX]
First of all, Yale has, by a huge margin, the best location/college town of any college in the Northeast
</p>