@ArdenNJ Have you told him that if he goes to Pingry, there may be less money available to fund his college costs, and that he may have to choose a lower cost college like Rutgers while other Pingry students can choose expensive colleges?
Thanks sir. Yes the request came from them. Especially the curly one wants Pingry and wants to go against the best students. He is competitive like me. The problem is, in my country all students in my Boarding School was guaranteed to go to the Top College. Getting into that Boarding School was more difficult to get into than the Top College. Therefore we collaborated. I was the Go to Math guy for everybody at school. Another friend of mine who was part of Physics Olympiad team was go to guy for Physics and we loved helping everybody. And we never were in a fierce competition. Ours was only minor bragging rights. We were a class of 96. 13 girsl and 83 boys. Being top of the class meant proposing the most beautiful girl type of things.
Now I hear bad stories about Pingry in terms of competition. I like their sports teams as this will force my boys to try sports.
@lookingforward - Another great post. I truly owe you. Thanks. Regarding community service. We already do soup kitchen at the church. My boys are also humbled each time we visit our home country. They see poverty with their own eyes. And they engage in activities regarding donations etc.
@ucbalumnus - I actually discussed Finance piece in another thread. We will still be able to pay for their college as full pay by ignoring retirement for a few years. The details are here just in case you want to read. http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/2015475-trying-to-plan-ahead-will-our-twins-be-eligible-for-any-financial-aid-p1.html
Arden, though youāve asked a number of similar questions in different threads, Iām glad you persisted. I have a feeling youāre doing more right than you realize.
The issue in NJ is that whether or not Pingry is uber competitive, so are many of the public high schools. Alas. We had a NJ poster who bemoaned just how fierce, how her child was squeezed by the volume of, let me call it, āTop Ten or Bustā sorts. Her D did well, though, as I recall, landing at a well respected top 50, one we often discuss positively on CC.
Ok. It looked from your posts in this thread that you would be financially squeezed by Pingry tuition.
Regarding ethnic diversity that you mentioned before, it does look like Chatham Township is around 90% white, so it is not surprising that the school reflects such (lack of) diversity.
Iāve only done a quick skim of the comments, so I am likely repeating some things. They both look like excellent HSs. Obviously the chance of admission to selective college depends on numerous other factors, many relating to the particular student. Most excellent students would probably thrive at either HS, but some would be a much better fit at one school than the other, and as such have better HS performance and better college admission results by attending one HS than the other.
This brings up some important points that I havenāt seen discussed such as, Which school(s) does the student want to attend? What ECs and non-academic activities interest him, and which school would best help facilitate those activities? Is he the type that is sensitive to a particular style of teaching/learning, or more the type that is likely to do well anywhere? Do you have any reasons for wanting to attend the private HS besides just hoping it help in admission to selective colleges?
When I was in HS, I attended a basic public HS (a lot worse than the linked one in NJ). I was bored out of my mind for the most part, which was reflected in often getting mediocre grades in subjects that I did not fin interesting and/or challengingā¦ Fortunately, I had the opportunity to take classes at an increased pace via independent study and the opportunity to take classes I found particularly interesting at a nearby university, which really helped my grades improve. I was the type whose academic performance was sensitive to teaching/learning style and would likely have had a better GPA/rank at a private with more challenging/interesting courses than my public. However, the opposite is also true for some students. Some function a lot better as being the big fish in a small pond. Some struggle when they go to a different school than their friends. Some students excel when they get away from bad influence friends. One thing that shocked me from doing alumni interviews for an elite college was the portion of students who mentioned challenges with bullying/teasing/not fitting in/ā¦ among their peer students. If one HS is better than the other in this respect, it can have large consequences. There are too many variables for a simple one size fits all better/worse college admission results.
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Most large US public high schools are multi-tracked. There is typically the AP track, the honors track, the regular track and the remedial track. The AP track kids compete against each other , so what you tend to have are schools within schools. Out of a class of, say, 400, there may only be 100-125 in the AP track. A wider variety of AP classes tend to be offered in the public schools too, and not everyone takes all AP classes. What is not different is that class sizes tend to be a larger than in independent (not religious) private schools. For instance, the average class size in my sonās private HS was around 15, and sometimes as few as 8 for classes beyond the AP sequence like Spanish 5 or Calc 3. In the public schools it was closer to 30, a real detriment for language and discussion classes.
Sports, music, theater, etc. are a lot more competitive in public schools. If your kids are not elite athletes they may not make the team. In the smaller private schools most anyone can join with just a little talent, and a lot of hard work.
āDiversityā is a buzzword that is way overrated and IMO meaningless. My sonās private HS was 42% āpeople of colorā. There was zero actual diversity because most every family were higher income professionals/academics/business owners, regardless of their race. 90%+ had very strong work ethics. That group is mostly much indistinguishable from the AP track kids at the public HS.
I did find that the private school parents were a lot more involved in their childrenās lives. Shelling out $25K+/yr is a serious investment. Behavior is a lot better. We experienced zero problems in private schools, many when our oldest was at our neighborhood public school. Private schools are very responsive, at a public schools you might as well be yelling at the sun.
If it were me I would send the kids to Pingry for middle school and then make a decision after youāve tried it out just before 9th grade.
Keep in mind that you will have at least a few thousand $ in extra expenses beyond tuition at a private school. Youāll need to pay for: books, field trips, class trips, special fees, uniforms for sports, court time, computers, annual fund donation, etc. etc.
I liked having mine in the local HS, rather than the private in another county, where play dates would have been hard. I think mine benefitted from being in the top 10%. He started taking courses at the local U in 10th grade, and took 5 eAch semester in 11th grade. He was able to be a leader in the public HS. He could ride his bike to his friends homes. Among his closest friends, one went to Naval Acqdemy. another was a Presidential scholar. A third went to Peace Corps and now lawyer. Etc. they were great friends, from great families. No one was focused on status of college, nor were they in direct competition.
Of course, when I was at the private, it was just so beautiful. I had to keep in mind that as a freshman, my son joined 4 seniors on the academic team. He was allowed to test and take advanced math. Again, he had local friends. He wasnāt around the parents who focused on the Ivies or bust, from elementary school forward. If he had gone to the honors program at the state U, for free, no one would have questioned that decision.
This is just my opinion and my experience.
My older son had 6 in his Latin class, 5 in AP Chem (there was another section that was much more crowded), and he had 5 or 6 in Linear Algebra. (Public school) But I will freely admit many other classes had 25-30 kids. They offered 22 different APs, and a handful of Dual Education courses.
Our town has million dollar homes and public housing - thereās a lot of diversity. Tracking definitely tracked along economic lines - but music and the other arts and sports did not.
I am very familiar with both schools.
Top 1% at Chatham HS is better than top 20 at Pingry.
Your kids sound smart. Just keep challenging them. Save your money, and come to CC for advice. Fancy private school doesnāt really help much. Pingryā matriculation stats are inflated by lots of legacy and athletes.
Went through the posts fast. You are an immigrant like my Indian H. You need to check out the gifted education opportunities at your public school if your sons are as intelligent as you indicate. Do not let your sons talk you into something you really canāt afford- you state there would not be money for extras. Pay attention to the posts. American public education, especially in rich school districts, is an excellent choice. Your sons likely will be with peers in their classes.
Colleges will not be as impressed with any private school, no matter how elite you may think it is. They expect students to take advantage of opportunities and do well- not just the top 20%ile. There will be many gifted students applying to the same colleges yours will who canāt afford a private HS and who get a great public education, especially as others state your school district is.
Save your money. Donāt be caught up in prestige- no one outside your area has even heard of the private schools. Of course the private school would like you to think theirs is better. In fact, being exposed to a wide range of students, with different backgrounds, may be more of an education than just being with rich kids who are all college bound. Others have already stated this.
When in HS your sons should be involved in extracurricular activities because they are interested in them, not for their resume. Nor should they do something because the twin is doing it.
You will be surprised at how much college costs and canāt expect scholarships to make a huge dent in expenses, especially at the top tier schools you think your sons will want.
A key issue is finances. Save your money for college (and beyond). Do not pressure your kids, or let them pressure themselves, to get the highest grades. I guess it would be easy to bow to pressure from your sons and make sacrifices (such as no family frills due to tuition) for them to go to a private school when they can get an equally good education at your public school. Never let them make you think they need to be at the private school because some friends are going to go there. btw- our son and Hās cousin (closer in age to our son than him) both came from ordinary, not prestigious, HSās in WI and CA and got perfect SAT scores. Our son did well on AP exams also- good teaching can be found in blue collar cities. We did have a good gifted program.
I said this before but itās worth repeating: you live in a wealthy town in a state with top, top public schools. I work in oneā¦ and two my coworkers kids attended neighboring high schools in NJ. These kids are in their own bands, play varsity sports, etc. They have been accepted to Notre Dame, UVA, Carleton, Bates, U Miami Fla- close to a full rideā¦ just to name a few. Were they accepted to any Ivy League schools? No- one had an interview but did not get in. These were top HS students.
You should know that living in the northeast plays against you when applying to some top schools. Are you going to move to increase your odds? You ( your kids) are competing against a bigger group of top students by living in the northeast.
Attending the public schools in NJ will not limit your kids choices in college, nor will it impede their learning. There are lots of brilliant kids in these schools. Do not underestimate the hand your kids were dealt by living in an area with top schools.
Make your decision based on where your kids will be happy and what you can affordā¦ and that means looking into the future and planning for college. Do not base your decision on college acceptances, as there is more to HS than attending a top college. Andā¦ getting into oneā¦ in this specific caseā¦ seems to be about your kids and what they do while in school, and less about the school they attend.
OP, you will certainly see that private schools will have a handful of feeder schools, but overall you will likely see the top 20 students at Chatham and the top 20 at Pingry attending comparable schools.
Another factor is that at the private school, unlike your kids, their class mates will have money to spare for all the frills your family will not. Their class mates will be taking vacations (plural) at fancy domestic and international locations, paying for private tutors, expensive extra curricular activities, targeting pricey private colleges, and posting about everything in social media. I would also think about how your kids would feel in these circumstances.
Also, please be aware that private schools in the U.S. expect parents to donate significantly. There will be a well oiled machine in place for fund raising events in which parents are expected to participate. Donāt think you will be done with just paying school tuition. That may work overseas, but not here. I speak from experience.
We live in a town with a nationally ranked boarding school. Our children attended the public schools, and the oldest matriculated to a top 10 university. There were opportunities to engage with HS teachers passionate about their specialties, take AP courses, participate in sports at the state level and honestly become more independent, learn about all different income levels and most important is learning to learn independently.
College freshman course levels eventually sort out. Intellectual capability and drive are the determining factors for undergraduate research opportunities and your college GPA on the curve with your classmates.
Very high taxes state taxes and a non-stellar state university (Rutgers) are going to limit your options somewhat. Iām a strong proponent of private K-12 schools, but private colleges are pushing $70K/yr for full pay parents. As an EU citizen the very best English speaking colleges (mostly in the UK) may be cost prohibitive by the time your kids graduate due to brexit.
One final word of advice is to gravitate toward IB schools, which will give you more options in the EU.
The private school that the OP is considering, Pingry, has tuition of $39,523, plus school lunches at $1,299 and additional costs (books and supplies, etc.) of $800 to $2,500, according to http://www.pingry.org/admission/tuition-value . So $41,622 to $43,322, assuming a commuter student (not including food and utilities consumed at home or commuting costs). That looks closer to Princeton tuition of $49,330 than Rutgers in-state tuition of $11,744 (or even out-of-state tuition of $27,282).
@ArdenNJ Based on your description of you son, have you considered magnet school? I briefly looked at the program of study at Chatham, I suspect he may not feel challenged academically.
Of the local schools, as far as I know, Newark Academy is the one offering an IB diploma. Pingry does not offer one. One of my sons got the full diploma, the other took some ala carte IB courses. There are pluses and minuses to the IB diploma, and we found the STEM side to be a bit light. They will learn reading list triage in IB: what you have to read, what you can skim, and what you donāt have time to read at all.
Do we have any reason to believeā¦ right nowā¦ in middle schoolā¦ that these twins will not be sufficiently challenged by AP physics B and C? Or Calc BC? Or AP US History? Our HS āonlyā offered these courses ā¦and the kidsā¦ who were incredibly smartā¦ felt challenged.
Rememberā¦ there is more to HS than finding courses that go beyond physics C. There are plays to be in, debate teams to join, clubs to lead, sports to play, dances to attend, math and science leagues to join, science fairs to participate in, orchestras to be in, student council, teachers to talk toā¦ andā¦ friends to make!!!
Maybe I am crazy, but if these kids take the most rigorous courses at Chathamā¦ ( and right now we donāt know how that will play out because they are in middle school), and also make time for the other things which are equally as importantā¦ as noted aboveā¦ they will be plenty challenged ( maybe too challenged).