Pro and cons of Chem 218

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
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<p>Starting a new thread on this chem 218 class to get more input. Thinking of taking Chem 218 for freshmen who have AP Chem credit. As a BME engineering major and possible pre-med what are the pros and cons? If 2 years of college chemistry are needed for med school, could Chem 218 and another year of upper division chemistry work well? Is that just a bad idea with too difficult a workload? Is it better to just start over with the Chem 102 series? The registration materials seem to suggest their might not be a choice. Thanks.</p>

<p>The registration materials state:</p>

<p>"Choosing your Chemistry Course</p>

<p>If you have a 5 on the AP Chemistry exam, you will receive AP credit for Chemistry, and you should speak with an adviser from the Dean’s office about a suitable substitute course for the fall semester. Otherwise, you should take CHEM 102A Lecture, CHEM 102A discussion, and CHEM 104A Laboratory."</p>

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<p>Again, repeating my opinion that a premed should go ahead and take gen chem. Hope others show up with some input but there aren’t that many of us who take 218 (only like 40 kids a year).</p>

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<p>Thanks, Pancaked. The older posts on Chem 218 seem to lean towards going for it, but they are several years old. Sounds like you don’t think Chem 102 series is just a repeat of AP Chem. Don’t want to make the schedule harder than it needs to be, but also don’t want to appear lazy by repeating classes I already have credit for. Do you think the Chem 102 etc. will be challenging?</p>

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<p>Chem 102 is pretty much a repeat of AP Chem. I am solely speaking for a premed student; for anyone else, I’d recommend to snatch that credit right up. You won’t appear lazy to anyone, in fact once you take Chem102 the AP credit wouldn’t even be on your transcript.</p>

<p>Chem 102 should be pretty simply after AP Chem. The homework is obnoxious and the tests aren’t super easy, but it won’t be very challenging.</p>

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<p>I hate to give up that AP credit if I choose not to go pre-med in the end. Would it make any sense to start with Chem 218 freshmen year, then go back to Chem 102 series sophomore or junior year? That way if I decided against pre-med I will just take the AP credits.</p>

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<p>Uhm… That’s an interesting thought… I mean that’s a bit odd but I don’t think med schools would care. The BME curriculum doesn’t have a ton of free space so I totally understand your concern here, taking the AP credit clears up a lot of space. Have you emailed Vandy’s premed adviser about the AP credit for med schools? He/she may have a better opinion.</p>

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<p>What is best for a chemistry/chemical engineering major with little interest in med school? Is the AP Chemistry course a suitable preparation for Chem 218? How difficult is Chem 218? Do students that take the course typically do well?</p>

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<p>If you’re not premed and feel comfortable with chem, go on to 218. Frees up a LOT of hours. Organic is a beast of it’s own and other than the very basics of gen chem (bonding, resonance, polarity, etc) the material from gen chem isn’t necessary.</p>

<p>I don’t think it’s any more difficult than the regular Organic Chemistry, just in the sense that freshman are usually little less prepared. You can drop down to Gen Chem even after you get your first test back (at least that used to be the policy) without consequence so no reason really to not take it.</p>

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<p>Pre-med here that took 218 … though I don’t regret, I now recommend any and all to take Gen Chem first. It’s not really about the material - OChem is difficult no matter when you take it. However, the amount of help and peer support you get from doing things the “normal way” outweighs being ahead a year in chem, in my personal opinion.</p>

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<p>For math, you can take credit for 155a and go straight into 155b, right? Can you do a similar thing for chem where you take credit for 102a and go into 102b?</p>

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<p>D is premed and took gen chem. Most kids in gen chem had taken AP chem and scored a 5 on the AP exam. The test averages of these students was in the 65-75 range. IMO the one thing a premed wants to avoid is being overwhelmed first semester freshman year.</p>

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<p>@opie so would you recommend taking chem 218 then? Which of the two classes is more challenging?</p>

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<p>Organic is clearly more challenging. Opie is not correct about most kids in there having taken AP Chem, but that score range is about normal for every serious math/science course at Vanderbilt. But remember that premeds need to take gen chem in college, as AP Credit does not cut it at some med schools.</p>

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<p>Pancaked, that’s actually not really true (a lot of people think it is): They need to take an inorganic with lab if they choose to opt out with AP credit in most cases. Inorganic can include pchem w/lab, analytical chemistry (which is just like gen. chem 2 at most schools with a statistical analysis slant. Many schools call this quantitative analysis) w/a lab, or an intermediate or advanced inorganic chemistry course with a lab. Gen. chem is not the only “inorganic” option if you took orgo. A decent amount of the people (including me, though I wasn’t pre-med) did freshman orgo. at my school (and this is honestly probably a harder class than all the upperclassmen sections, many of which are really hard compared to even most peer schools), and most of the pre-meds (even non-chem. majors) took analytical w/lab. They called their med. schools of interest to confirm that that was indeed a viable alternative, and it was. Most got interviews or offers without having ever set foot in a general chemistry course (one friend even called Vanderbilt, and apparently they apparently said they would even take Organometallic if he ended up taking the lab component). Also, some upperlevel options at most places are run better than gen. chem and thus often yield a slightly better grade distribution (even if the content, exams, and workload is technically harder). </p>

<p>The only reason most people/pre-meds/pre-med advisors think gen. chem is the only option for this requirement is because they probably don’t envision a pre-med ever taking any other chemistry class on par w/orgo (an intermediate level) if they are not a chem. major. But honestly, stronger non-chemistry pre-meds do it all of the time. I have, at Emory seen many strong pre-meds who were biology majors take biochem in the chem department for example, and some would also take bio-organic, or life sciences pchem w/the lab component. These people got into med. school. 2 of them are at WashU actually (and some students I knew, including my co-mentor for organic chemistry supplemental instruction, who took this guy for freshman orgo. got into Harvard without stepping foot in a gen. chem course). A lot probably just choose what to based upon their performance in freshman orgo (normally, here, if they average a B+ or higher both semester, they just take analytical or advanced inorganic w/lab).</p>

<p>Point is, given that Vandy has higher caliber students based on statistics, I’m sure there are also plenty of pre-meds w/ the intellectual curiousity and strength to do these things (and they do indeed do this) and that they were still accepted into med. school (actually, apparently places like Harvard Med. actually prefer people who went on to pursue upperlevel coursework instead of retaking the AP credit. Also, places like Princeton, in general, advise against their pre-meds forfeiting an AP science credits and just moving on to higher level studies in the pre-med core areas).</p>

<p>Just had to chime as I went a place that has way too many pre-meds and thus have the experience of several friends as a sort of indirect experience. Even the phmo here apparently gives that sort of advice. For example, they suck so much, they once told a person who had already taken pchem to go back and take gen. chem b/c they took freshman orgo. They refused and got into med. school. I mean, it’s up to the student. If the student is completely risk averse or did not like their first college chemistry experience, then by all means, take gen. chem. If you liked it or thought it was fine, it may be worth looking for an upperlevel (non-pchem if you’re not a chem major. At least not regular pchem) w/lab in place of gen. chem.</p>

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<p>Happy, I’m a parent and not qualified to make recommendations. My post reflects my premed D’s experience after her freshman year and my thoughts. Please talk to Vandy pre med and chemistry counselors.<br>
First, most of the kids she knows in gen chem had taken AP chem (and lots of other AP classes in HS) and they all found the rigor much much higher at Vandy than in HS. Unfortunately pre meds must be concerned about their GPA and you don’t want to be weeded out after first semester freshman year because you took too many difficult classes. IMO it’s best to give freshman time to adjust to college academics, social life, new freedom, homesickness, new friends etc… before loading up with difficult courses. D was told to take credit for AP calc since she would not be taking any more math but since upper level chem is based on lower level information she was told to go with general chem. I did not want her in an upper level chem class with a weaker background than her classmates. This may not be true for your child and his HS but my D came from an average public HS. Each student is different.</p>

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<p>Orgo. is not really “higher level” so much as a completely different class. Usually, taking gen. chem first will not necessarily prepare you better for orgo. in your sophomore year (the 2 classes, if orgo. is done right, require completely different ways of thinking. I mean schools like Williams College have migrated to a system where orgo. is taken first by everyone. And this is actually sensible because I remember taking it alongside biology and biology made so much more sense to me. Gen. chem seems like a bunch of random stuff, and I would be bored if I had to see it again in the exact same context, just with more rigor). Some people who got B’s and C’s in gen. chem get much higher and orgo. and you sometimes have the reverse where people who get A’s in gen. chem get a B or C in orgo. I mean think about it, the two courses (gen. chem and orgo) at most schools are curved to or yield roughly the same average (C+/B- at southern elite schools), so their honestly isn’t much of a risk associated with taking orgo. over gen. chem other than having to take a compensatory inorganic (could be gen. chem) later. Many pre-meds here do the same thing. They had AP chem and scored 4 or 5 but retook gen. chem 1 and 2 instead taking something else. Most of them were thinking it would just be a review and they would get an easy A, but most got B (like B/B+, and sometimes C+/B-) grades and sometimes even worse. I’m sure that many of them did better than those new to the material, but a bunch of them just did about the same. Averages in gen. chem were generally between 60-75. In addition, lots of people taking freshman organic are actually very smart and are often better prepared than the sophomores in orgo. who have taken gen. chem already (It is not uncommon for those freshman who switch to a sophomore section of orgo, even the hardest sophomore section, to get a B+ or higher even though the average is C+/B-. And this is even if they had an easy freshman orgo. section. One also has to take into account, that like physics, gen. chem is difficult for many people to retain anyway, especially the non-mathematical material, which is small compared to the amount of quantitative concepts covered). </p>

<p>I would worry if you are taking a hard courseload w/orgo. though. I for example, would not really do more than that and another science (say biology) unless you’re really strong (as many are). I also came from an average to poor public HS and took orgo. and biology as a freshman (when bio here still had a B- average) and other rigorous labs and seminars, and did well. </p>

<p>It is also necessary to measure the competition level. Usually those who get invites (a 5 on chem does not automatically get you an invite) to our freshman orgo. course physics have AP credits (often physics C at that), and calc. BC credits, biology credits, etc and are bold enough to use them. These are usually the cream of the crop in science (many are not even pre-med and are open to a career in research or non-healthcare related science field. So these people are usually genuinely interested in the material, which I must admit is different from gen. chem where many are taking it only because they have to. This drives down the level of competition in gen. chem in some respects as many resort to just trying to “get by” at some point. Same also goes w/sophomore orgo.). There was no curve in my freshman orgo, but the competition level did matter because you can get bonus points to improve your test scores and normally that involves competing against another person/people at solving difficult problems or answering difficult questions in class. If you aren’t well prepared, and don’t do well on the exams, you won’t be able to get the bonus points to increase the exam grade and will likely not do as well as you’d like in the course. A class graded on a curve will yield a similar situation except that test performance is a governing factor in such a case. However, even then, if I find that Vandy’s freshman orgo. course is curved or yields a B/B+ and gen. chem is curved to a C+/B-, I would take my chances in orgo and band together. I mean, ask around about its curve, and also go see pre-health office or a chemistry professor and discuss your HS science preparation, and they’ll help. Not everyone has to be a “cookie cutter” pre-med that follows the same track as everyone else when they can advance themselves. You just have to see if the non-traditional track is for you.</p>