Problems with daughter

Parents Forum
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<p>Even engineering has some “general ed” courses that students need to complete (e.g. english composition & some others, perhaps a language). Could her summer courses consist of these courses PLUS one engineering course and one that she has a “flair” for an excelled in earlier (e.g. HS)? That might give her & you the most options & best chances for success.</p>

<p>If Physics was a nightmare for your kiddo, not sure that engineering makes sense, since at least for our kid, there was A LOT of physics he took for his EE degree. (Fortunately, he loves physics & does very well in it.)</p>

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<p>Her dreams are unrealistic. Some people want to be singers but no matter how much training their voice is still mediocre. So want to act but are just not good. Imwould have loved to be an Olympic ice skater, but wasn’t for me. Dreams are great but they must be based in some sort of reality. It’s like some who wants to fly jet planes but has bad vision, or someone who wants to be a surgeon but has a tremor, or like myself, thought I want to be an accountant but found all the math tedious, though I excelled at more abstract math. Some people are just not cut out to be engineers, nor should they force it. </p>

<p>This is not the dream for your daughter, if she was passing, even barely,then sure, but she is not. </p>

<p>She needs to get real, and take class’s over the some that are more core and less engineering. That I would push heavily.</p>

<p>Chearleading a pipe dream is just stupid</p>

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<p>

Not me - I would have done the same thing in your shoes because it’s best for the kids to pursue what they’re really interested in since it’s their life. The parents shouldn’t pick the major - they should discuss it if they want, but not be the final decision maker. Besides, you never really know how someone will end up doing once they’re in college pursuing something they’re interested in. They also need to be allowed to fail.</p>

<p>However, they don’t need to be permitted to continually fail on the parents’ dime. </p>

<p>What does she say the issue is? She might not want to talk about the failures very much with you but since you have a vested financial interest in this she owes you a complete response and she needs to spend time thinking about this question honestly with herself. She must know what the issue is - difficulty, distractions, lack of concentration, poor preparation, too much competition, depression, etc.</p>

<p>You can ask her some questions with quantifiable answers - </p>

<ul>
<li>How many hours per day does she study for each course?</li>
<li>Does she work with others as study partners?</li>
<li>Does she attend every class? (a lot of people who fail are skipping classes)?</li>
<li>Does she attend every discussion group?</li>
<li>Has she been to the prof’s office hours to ask questions about what she doesn’t understand?</li>
<li>How much time does she spend in the labs?</li>
<li>How many questions does she ask the TAs?</li>
<li>etc.</li>
</ul>

<p>Answers to the above might be enlightening to both of you.</p>

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<p>I have to disagree with the approach suggested by GladGradDad. The list of questions he suggests seems geared toward figuring out the issue. The issue is crystal clear based on high school (is that where the F was changed to a C?), middle average SAT scores, performance in Physics, and this first year. The issue is that this major is not for her. And it sounds like she is motivated by the wrong things. I’m sure she has her gifts…I believe we all do…she should find and pursue those. </p>

<p>Bottom line: There is no way I would sink another dollar into this endeavor. I would cut it off now and figure out how to nurse her hurt feelings later.</p>

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<p>@HImom ~ We are going to have to take a look at which classes to take after next weeks finals are done. I am going to have to take a stand based on the fact that some of the commenters here have expressed the same sentiments that I have been keeping to myself. My daughter has two math finals next week and, right now, she is a D grade in both of them. The pressure is on for her to score high in the finals in order to even achieve a C and honestly I don’t see it happening. I think the book is going to write itself. However, I still have to pay $9000 for summer school to gain the lost credits to keep her at the school. If she drops out of this school, there will be no getting into any other school at this level. I don’t want to part with $9000 but, if I don’t, the dream is definitely over. She will have to drop out completely and then what?</p>

<p>@seahorsesrock ~ I agree with you. That’s why I posted here to gain some perspective from people who can be objective.</p>

<p>@Gladgraddad ~ Those are excellent questions to be asking and I have asked most of them. I have yet to receive an answer from her that makes any sense. My feeling is that she is burned out and completely disinterested in a major that sounded so good on paper. I don’t think she realized just how difficult the math and science classes were going to be, plus the volume of workload. She is swamped. Something doesn’t add up. It seems that she is always scrambling right before finals week and then fails the exams. I told her that if she didn’t pass the math exams next week that I would no longer be funding an engineering degree and that she would have to settle on a major that makes sense for her. Some of the commenters here made me feel like a bad, non supportive father for doing such a thing but, heck, we cannot go on like this. After a year of bad grades, failed classes and dropped classes, something has to be said because this aint working.</p>

<p>@Threetosend ~ I agree with you 90%. This particular road has to be cut off if my daughter fails next week’s math finals. However, I think we need to find a major that suits her rather than this engineering flight of fancy. I am more than willing to see this through to the end BUT not like this. It is true that, based on the evidence, my daughter is not going to be an engineer. She can, however, remain at XYZ pursuing a more suitable degree and that is my wish for her. I just need to find a way to get the point across with completely crushing her.</p>

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<p>*WITHOUT. That should read WITHOUT crushing her. (nervous LOL)</p>

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<p>I think the hardest think as a parent (and a spouse) is to watch someone pursue a delusion. I don’t agree that because the person is 23, she should be left to fail. The character trait of stubborn delusion can ruin a life. I think that is more the issue than the engineering major or the $9000K, though that is certainly a significant amount.</p>

<p>I am puzzled though. Why doesn’t U XYZ tell her she is not part of the engineering major? Something feels wrong. Most really competitive schools won’t let people remain in majors they are failing.</p>

<p>My S (who had previously received B’s) was failing Music Theory. He attended a very competitive school and hoped to be a Music Major. The Dean called him in to tell him that the Department didn’t think he was cut out for a music major.</p>

<p>There were tears (first I’d seen in about 15 years), but he did adjust. He graduated as a Classics Major, and late in the game found his true passion. He is now in grad school to becoming an Art Historian and hasn’t received less than an A. </p>

<p>Although S is a competent violinist, the music major wasn’t for him. I am grateful to his school for letting him know, and so is he.</p>

<p>DD got mostly A’s in the first semester of law school. She got 2 the second semester but also got two low grades. She knew this masked a secret hatred of what she was being asked to learn. Being a lawyer had been a childhood dream. She is now excelling in a competitive graduate history program.</p>

<p>If a child is delusional I would not pay for more engineering courses, plain and simple. If she insists that she has to do engineering, I would find a way for her to do one engineering course close by where she could live with a parent. If she succeeds at the engineering course, I would reconsider.</p>

<p>Supporting a delusion is like giving someone money for cocaine. </p>

<p>If this seems harsh, let me say that I do feel for your daughter. It is hard letting go of dreams. But there are many, many dreams.</p>

<p>I am a college professor, and I’d probably flunk an engineering major.</p>

<p>Give her love. Tell her she’s smart and talented and can do many things. Maybe engineering just isn’t one of them.</p>

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<p>Rangerjoe- I’m not being critical. And of course, it’s your money and so you get to be invested in how it’s spent and what the outcome is.</p>

<p>But take a step back. “We” don’t need to find a major. She needs to find a major. “We” don’t get to take a look at her course load, she needs to do that. There’s no we.</p>

<p>I’m going to posit that perhaps some of the obstinacy you are getting from your D is part immaturity and part a reaction to your ownership/investment in her college experience. You say zig so she says zag. You tell her that she’s not cut out for engineering (based on facts- I’m not saying you are wrong here!) and she digs in her heels and tells you its engineering or bust.</p>

<p>Take a step back. She’s 23. Many 23 year olds are already graduated and financially independent from dear old dad. Yours is not for what I’m sure are very valid reasons, and you are a good parent for continuing to plug away as her advocate and coach.</p>

<p>But I predict much less stubborn behavior from her once you make it clear your boundaries.</p>

<p>1- she needs to show you a realistic plan to graduate with a bachelor’s degree in some discipline before you write another check. That plan needs to include the right number of credits in some academic field which will yield a degree in X number of semesters. If it isn’t going to be at this university, she needs to find a place you can all afford. If it’s at this university, she needs a plan (with the help of a dean of students) which gets her out of there before the money runs out.
2- You love and support her with all your heart. She needs to find her bliss. If she needs a semester off- she needs to find out the right procedure so as not to lose her academic standing and funding. If she wants to go part time to have more hours to focus on the more demanding courses, it’s up to her to figure out how to make the scholarship and credit hours work out within your financial and timing limitations. If she wants to stick with engineering, she needs to show you that she can get out with a degree in X semesters. And then you back off. Let her own this.
3- Stop complaining about the 9K. If you and your D end up fighting over every check you’re going to need to write before she graduates, you will be a limp mess by the time she marches in her procession and collects her diploma. Tell her your budget, tell her your boundaries, she needs to decide if she’s going to spend a significant portion of your allotted tuition money on summer school and if so, she then needs a plan for completing those courses and getting credit for them. But I suspect you have a sharp intake of breath every time the subject of summer school and the 9K rolls around… and it’s not helping. You’ve mentioned it many times on this thread already- and I think it’s a red herring. Yes, it’s a lot of money. But I think to you it symbolizes that she doesn’t have a viable plan for graduating. So stop it with the 9K-- tell her that you are leaving it her hands to come up with a viable plan for graduating given your budget, and then let her act like a 23 year old and actually come up with that plan.</p>

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<p>I think the talking about the 9k is valid. She is insisting on staying in a major she is failing. And she wants to do it on dads dime. At what point can we as parents say, honey,enough already. I can not financially nor emotionally continue to help you if you can’t explain to me why you want to continue in this major besides you want to be an engineer…while at this point I don’t see you being able to be one. </p>

<p>She is 23. She is not stupid. She must see what is right in front of her. Money is an issue. Aren’t we always telling each other discuss the money…why is it when the student is failing is money suddenly a taboo issue? If she wasnt failing, dad wouldn’t have to pay the extra money. But dad is having to fork over extra money so daughter can salvage something. Her choice. It’s reality. </p>

<p>Op says she thinks she can do it, but seeing the track record, seems very doubtful. And dad has every right to not want to throw money away to a stubborn daughter.</p>

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<p>seahorses, I think there’s a difference between letting your kid know that while your love is endless your financial support has limits, vs. threatening your kid (either explicitly or implicitly) that unless they turn things around, do it your way, take time off, change majors, accept that they have failed, you won’t be ponying up the money for summer school which by the way is 9K which is a lot of money.</p>

<p>The time to tell your kid that you can’t afford summer school is back when you had the discussion about summer school. Kid: I need to make up my credits with summer school. Between tuition, room, books, etc. it will cost 9K. Dad: Sorry honey, that’s not in the budget. You’ll need to meet with your advisor and come up with another plan.</p>

<p>You don’t sign on to summer school and then decide it’s too much money because your D’s roommate calls you to say that your D is crying all the time. That’s a different problem. </p>

<p>I’m just suggesting that the D has surmised that the dad is hell bent on proving that she’s not smart enough to be an engineer, and now the D is hell bent on proving him wrong, and everyone is upset because this fantastic and cheap prestigious college is going to end up costing more than they thought and possibly more than they can afford. And by the way, the D is already 23.</p>

<p>So have an adult conversation- here’s what’s left of the college fund. come back to me with the plan on how you’re going to get a degree based on what we can afford. If it means you need to switch out of engineering- that’s fine. If it means transferring to a less expensive college- that’s fine. If it means a semester off to clear your head- that’s fine. But come up with a plan, dad is not going to be nagging you to study for your math final and worrying that you won’t have enough credits to get junior standing. That’s your part of the program.</p>

<p>And I’m curious about the mom here. Involved in the drama? Helpful? not supportive? Contributing financially? Sending mixed messages like “this is the only college worth attending and being an engineer is the only profession worth having”? Out of the picture?</p>

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<p>@ Blossom ~ I understand what you’re saying. I need to stand back and give my daughter the reins to steer her own course. Well, that is what I have been doing for the past year. I do feel like I’m helicoptering and I don’t enjoy that feeling. I have raised my children to think independently. I agree with your number 1 point above. She does need to come up with a plan. I agree with your point number 2 above. I’m just concerned that she will not get into any other university if she leaves the one she’s at. She is a long way from home right now but we make it work. It’s a great school. As for point number 3 above, I do not agree with you. $9000 is a lot of money for me and I am feeling as though I’ve been taken advantage of if you want the truth. I knew right from jump that engineering was the wrong choice and I told my daughter that if she was not able to handle the classes, she would have to rethink her choice of major. We are now at that point but she STILL insists on stressing herself out in taking these engineering classes. In the meantime, she has dropped or failed so many classes that she is short of units for the fall. No matter what happens here, in order to keep her at that school, she has to take summer school and I am OUT $9000. I think that’s a very big deal especially considering that I need a new car.</p>

<p>@Mythmom ~ I thought that very thing. Why hasn’t the advisor called her into the office to tell her that she just isn’t making it? Coming from a member of the college staff, I think my daughter would be more willing to listen and more willing to consider her options. As it is, no one has said ANYTHING about her dismal academic performance. I am at a loss. Why hasn’t anyone said anything?? My daughter has talked with the advisor several times and, even in the face of dropped and failed classes and not having enough units to qualify for her grant next year, no one has said anything. I have left my daughter to pursue her academic career. She is 23 years old and an adult. But, I only found out just this week that she was missing units to qualify for grant money next fall. She didn’t say anything to me, just waited for me to find out on my own. Now, I have to withdraw $9000 from my retirement funds to pay for a summer session that I should never have had to pay for! But, because I let my daughter run the show and kept my nose out of it, this is the result.</p>

<p>@seahorsesrock ~ I was feeling a little incredulous as I read Blossom’s comment. $9000 is NOT a red herring, not when one considers that I am already out of pocket that much already over the course of the past school year. I am not a wealthy man as I have already stated. However, where I see value, I will make it work. If I saw value in my daughter continuing to take engineering classes, I would move heaven and earth to make her dream a reality. However, she is presently failing two math classes! At some point, money IS an issue, a very big one. I am already in the hole for the $9000 over the
summer. The question is, how am I going to spend that $9000? On more pointless engineering related classes? or am I going to get this kid to see that she has to find her passion, her true calling, whatever it is? I have given her a year to prove herself, despite knowing at the outset that this is how things would end up. She has not proved herself. May I reiterate that my daughter is far from stupid. She is just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.</p>

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<p>No one should ever major in something just because they think it will be a lucrative field.</p>

<p>If you are not good at something, and don’t love it, you will not do well once you get out into the work world.</p>

<p>I would try and convince her, based on her experience to date, that she is simply not cut out for engineering.</p>

<p>Plus, she is attending a university that she is not qualified to attend.</p>

<p>Wrong major. Wrong university.</p>

<p>I would see if you could simply do a “do-over”, and start all over again with a new major.</p>

<p>Or perhaps attend a state school closer to home-----again, with a different major.</p>

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<p>@blossom ~ “And I’m curious about the mom here. Involved in the drama? Helpful? not supportive? Contributing financially? Sending mixed messages like “this is the only college worth attending and being an engineer is the only profession worth having”? Out of the picture?”</p>

<p>Her mother and I are divorced. I try to have as little to do with my ex-wife as possible because she only adds fuel to the fire. As for my daughter, she doesn’t get along with her mother either and so keeps her at arms distance. My ex-wife works at the university but has little contact with our daughter beyond the basics. My ex-wife, however, does what she can to help the kids.</p>

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<p>@floridadad55 ~ And that is the crux of the problem. My daughter got into a school that she wasn’t qualified to attend. I can’t go into details beyond that. I agree with everything you write. Just yesterday I was trying to figure out how we could continue with college with my daughter moving back home and attending from here. That would mean leaving XYZ. I have told my daughter that not having a flair for engineering as a student will mean not having a flair as an employee but she doesn’t seem to believe me. I however believe that to be the truth. The problem here is going to be getting into another school. I feel that she needs to stay where she is because the risk of leaving and then NOT being able to transfer is too high.</p>

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<p>I have two questions.</p>

<p>If I’m not being too intrusive, why is your daughter a freshmen at the age of 23? What has she been doing since high school?</p>

<p>Is there any way that the summer school units could be gained through courses other than engineering classes? If you could get your daughter to agree to consider changing majors, could she take some core classes, liberal arts or electives this summer? That way she would gain the units and maybe cover some ground toward a change in major.</p>

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<p>It is hard because on one hand, you state concern for her. But on the other hand, you keep stating the amount that it sounds like you are court ordered to pay, as if this is more about the money.</p>

<p>On the emotional issues, I would wonder if someone pushed her in to engineering. But a change of major would be what she should do, not so much just drop out.</p>

<p>Which brings us to the financial issue…that would mean you would keep paying but support her in seeking out different classes.</p>

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<p>$9000 is alot of money I highly doubt there is anything other than suddenly needing to spend $9000 that the op wasn’t planning on spending. And i imagine anyone who needs to write a $9000 check that weren’t planning on would be tossing that one around in their head over and over. My only advice about summer school would be to either take repeat classes to replace any failed classes and any other classes should be non-engineering until the OP’s D has a heart to heart with an engineering adviser to see about continuation in that major. The OP is correct that the D will have more problems trying to transfer with a low GPA than toughing it out this summer AS LONG AS the summer is spent academically doing something that will help the GPA.</p>

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<p>don’t worry about killing her dreams. It sounds like engineering is not in her dreams. Plus the yawning while talking to you is rude. I would wonder the real of why she is yawning. I am doubting it is studying. </p>

<p>I am sorry that I don’t know the situation completely. But…I will say…I will not pay for my children’s education after 24 yrs old or for grad school. Even the EFC expects that the parents will not be paying at that point. Is it possible that at 23 yrs old, she has always had someone paying her bills? And she figured you will just step in and rescue her? Because it is not very healthy for an adult to live off mom and dad at 23 yrs old. I can understand if she is working hard, but she would be getting the financial boot soon. It is hard to be “hard” on our children, but it is in their best interest. They will be hurt in the long run if you don’t teach them to stand on their own two feet.</p>

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<p>

This seems strange to me. I wonder - did she ‘really’ speak to an ‘academic advisor’ or was it someone else or was the topic of the academics even discussed - i.e. maybe the advisor didn’t know the academic situation at the time of the discussion?</p>

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<p>OP, Your D needs to change her major. period. The math, physics and engineering classes will get EVEN HARDER next year, not easier. It is one of the hardest majors and lots of kids realize this during college and have to find another area to major in. Regardless of whether engineering is her “dream”, she just will not cut it. Many people “dream” of having enough $$ to buy a new Mercedes each year, but most dont go out and buy one when doing so means they cant afford food or a roof over their heads. Her only option, if she wants to stay at that college [ if you can still afford it] should be to change majors or else she needs to come home. And she needs to be told that no other “good” college will accept her as a transfer student after failing classes. She would need to prove that she can succeed in college, and so far she has not done so. So she will have to start over at a CC, which after taklng a break, might be her best option. Someone has to be the realist in this situation. Sorry it has to be you. When one door shuts another one opens. She needs to understand that the “other doors” do not include staying in her major and failing, at that college on your dime.</p>