Problems with majors without real undergraduate programs back in the late 1970s

Colleges and Universities A-Z Johns Hopkins University
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<p>This is my experience with a fake undergraduate program at Hopkins in the late 1970s. I don't know whether this still exists. At that time many departments really had only graduate programs. I had very mixed feelings about posting this, and mixed feelings about Hopkins, but it is something I need to express. I don't want to create problems for Hopkins, but I had kind of a bad reaction to treatment for post traumatic stress syndrome and all these memories came out. I don't know whether this is the best place to post it.</p>

<p>These are my experiences a long time ago, and I don't know how they relate to Hopkins today. I couldn't find anywhere else to post this. If anyone has ideas as to a better place to post it I would be interested. I know this is long, but I couldn't find a shorter way of saying what happened.</p>

<p>I think there are a lot of great points about Hopkins, but I did have some serious problems there. This is kind of long, but I tried to keep it mostly to the problems I had with the fake undergraduate program.</p>

<p>There were 0 level classes, 300 level classes, and 600 level classes. The 0 were introductory classes, of which there were very few. The 600 were Ph.D. level classes. The 300 level classes were upper level undergraduate classes or masters degree classes. The catalog did not explain which were which and there was a reason for that.</p>

<p>Many departments had fake undergraduate programs. They did not want undergraduate students. They had undergraduate programs that were really graduate programs.</p>

<p>I transferred mid year sophomore year from somewhere not at the same level. My education and original college applications had been a little messed up from various things. Hopkins really liked my high SAT IIs. They were very informal and old fashioned about what they wanted, like they didn't require so many recommendations and didn't have a recommendation form. I was impressed with it and happy to get into a much better school.</p>

<p>When I got there, I told the general adviser. I wanted to major in math. He said “mathematics or mathematical science?” I said “mathematics”. He said my grades and scores weren't good enough for mathematics and I should major in mathematical science. I thought he misunderstood because my academic background was sort of messed up. I said I wanted to major in “mathematics”.</p>

<p>He sent me to a mathematics faculty adviser. He again told me that my grades and scores were not good enough for mathematics. He also suggested mathematical sciences. He suggested the 0-level courses in Number Theory and Differential Equations were OK for me. However, he told me I did not have the ability for the 300-level mathematics course, and anyway they were theoretical.</p>

<p>The next year, I took the first 300-level mathematics courses. I did not understand them and did not do well in them, which is natural because they were really graduate classes. After that, I took no more classes from the mathematics department. </p>

<p>I took mathematical science department classes. However, the except for the computer programming classes, which I got As in, the classes I took were too hard. I didn't understand the catalog and didn't understand that I needed to start again with the absolute easiest mathematical science department classes. It took me 5 years to get through college, 3 ½ at Hopkins after transferring after 1 1/3. I wound up completing a quantitative science area major, and there was one last course I needed the Spring Semester and they wouldn't let me graduate without it.</p>

<p>Later on my adviser didn't advise but just signed my schedule, which was standard. The premeds had informal peer advising on what classes they could get As in and mostly forged their advisers' signatures. Anyway, he seemed kind of amused when he signed my schedule and acted like I wasn't getting something.</p>

<p>I guess the problem was I was unsophisticated and didn't understand that the advisers were giving me a run around because they really didn't have an undergraduate mathematics program. Obviously, the mathematics department was theoretical and it made no sense for anyone to major in it, thus no real undergraduate program. I should have understood this. However, I didn't really understand the difference between one math department and another when I got there.</p>

<p>I wound up with about a 2.5 average overall. About 2.0 in upper level courses in my major and 3.0 in other classes. I think the reason for the low major average was mainly that I was taking essentially graduate courses that I could not understand, and my average in appropriate classes would have been about 3.0. I also didn't learn much in those classes and it was traumatic. This created various problems for me with further education and career.</p>

<p>There was a girl who also transferred to Hopkins and was majoring in mathematics. She stopped going to classes partly through her first year because she couldn't understand the mathematics classes. Then they let her back in at the beginning of the next year and she left again after a month. I don't know if she went back to University of Rochester or whatever, but it seems like 2 years wasted in a way, and probably pretty traumatic.</p>

<p>There were a few people listed in the student directory as mathematics majors, mostly all freshmen. They would change majors to mathematical science or other fields, or drop out or transfer. If you came in as a transfer, it could be more difficult.</p>

<p>When I told my story a friend told me about someone who wanted to major in some sort of engineering to be a patent lawyer, and they kept giving him this run around and it turned out they didn't really have an undergraduate program. </p>

<p>The mathematics department did have many introductory courses, as people needed calculus and so on for other majors. There were several departments with no introductory courses. Obviously, that made it impossible to major in them, but they had fake undergraduate programs made up of graduate classes with nobody majoring in them. I don't know how many departments didn't have real majors then, or how many still don't.</p>

<p>50% of the students then were premed. Most of them were Jewish or Italian from New York or Philadelphia and there fathers were doctors, but couldn't get them into the “preppy” colleges other doctors would buy their sons into. Hopkins has a big name in medicine due to the medical school, which is maybe the best, but was part of a different bequest from Mr. Johns Hopkins, and has a separate board of directors.</p>

<p>It was very hard to get in as a premed otherwise. They had eliminated the honor code a few years earlier as they were openly cheating in groups. They would act like you were a loser who wasn't going to be a doctor. A high percentage of them switched to other majors or dropped out or transferred. This was mainly because they were under all kinds of pressure but didn't really want to be doctors.</p>

<p>The premeds would deliberately fail foreign language placement tests so that they would all be in the lowest level class. So some of them with 4 years German in high school would get Ds in German I, due to this competition and the tough grading by Hopkins and German departments. So if you took the test honestly or wanted to take a language without 3+ years of it in high school, you were probably in trouble. It seemed like a difficult and cutthroat environment.</p>

<p>85% of the students were either premed, international studies, or electrical engineering. English, mathematical sciences, psychology, environmental engineering made up another 7% or so. The English major was sort of career oriented like the rest, as it was almost totally prelaw or pre-MBA.</p>

<p>I think part of the reason for the concentration in certain majors is that as implied there were only so many departments with real undergraduate programs.</p>

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<p>This is the rest. It is an interesting story, although I know rather long:</p>

<p>I talked once with a woman whose father was a Hopkins professor. She said he told her he definitely did not want her to apply to Hopkins. She said he told her the undergraduate was all career and not about education.</p>

<p>Hopkins was originally only a graduate school. It was the first place you could get a Ph.D. in the US. It was modeled after German universities in the time of Von Bismark. That explains some of the emphasis on graduate studies and how it is oriented towards studying one thing, as you do at European universities.</p>

<p>I did develop excellent work habits, study skills, research skills and writing skills that I might not have at an Ivy League school. I got a lot out of it. Every course was very intense. There was a lot of work, and the grading was tough. I got 3 As there, as really knew the material well in those classes. </p>

<p>I was interested in different things, which didn’t fit well with Hopkins. However, I took some absolutely incredible humanities courses.</p>

<p>It was sort of old school, like we make it tough for you so you can handle the world. That has some merit. The students would act the same way as the school and faculty, and were kind of snobbish in different ways. The other majors acted sort of like the premeds, cutthroat, concerned with grades, and the right moves for career.</p>

<p>It is somewhat easier to get into now than when I went. However, it is a world class university. Because it is difficult to deal with and so intense, and extreme in not caring about undergraduates, a lot people don’t want to go there, but it is an excellent school.</p>

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<p>This was really interesting to read. As a Hopkins student going into my sophomore year, I think some things have changed, and others not so much. For one thing, there are a lot more “real” undergraduate majors with a set number of 100-200 level introductory classes, of which there are generally a variety. There are a number of 300-400 level upper-level courses required for each major, but it makes up 50% or less of the major. </p>

<p>There’s no more mathematical sciences major; it’s become an Applied Mathematics and Statistics major, which may or may not be the same major with a different name. The difference between the AMS and Math majors still aren’t really explained, but both can be majored in at the undergraduate level. AMS is still the more popular major, though, with even many Math majors double-majoring in AMS or Computer Science because Math on its own is very theoretical and not so marketable.</p>

<p>The advising is still very so-so, IMO. My advisor told me that I could spend my first year of college “exploring” and that I could double major in Behavioral Biology and AMS. I initially believed her, only to find out later that I could <em>not</em> in fact double major and still graduate in three years. I guess that’s understandable considering she’s an Arts and Sciences advisor and doesn’t really know the course requirements for majors in the Engineering school. </p>

<p>Now, there are a lot of Asians and Jews, not so many Italians. From New York and California, surprisingly. I only know one other person from PA, zero people from Philly. I think Hopkins has diversified itself a little bit since the 70s though; there’s a small but very tight-knit African/African-American/Black population at Hopkins. </p>

<p>There are still a lot of premeds coming in. We’re all still very concerned with grades; you can usually find most of the student body in the library / study spots / rooms studying at any given moment. But Hopkins has worked <em>very</em> hard to make the school and culture less cutthroat. I haven’t seen a lot of cheating, and it’s definitely not open or tolerated. I’ve met a few pre-meds who choose the easiest schedules/majors, and avoid majors that have a language requirement. But for the most part everyone wants to overachieve (choose higher-level courses, double major, add minors, take on lots of extracurricular activities). My pre-med advisor doesn’t encourage taking easier courses or anything like that.</p>

<p>The majority of the students are still pre-med, majoring in Neuroscience, Molecular/Cellular Biology, Biology, and Public Health. International Studies, Biomedical Engineering, and Chemical/Biomolecular Engineering are also popular. Writing Seminars, Applied Math, Computer Science, and Electrical, Mechanical, Computer Engineering are also popular in a smaller portion. Spanish is also a popular second major / minor. As far as I know, the humanities majors are not very career-oriented. It’s no longer that these majors are the only “real” ones; it’s more that these are the most “marketable” ones over majors like Romance Languages, Physics, etc.</p>

<p>Hopkins has definitely put more of a focus on education over career, as it has distribution requirements now, where you have to take a certain number of Humanities, Social Sciences, Natural Sciences, Quantitative Sciences, and Engineering credits outside of your major to graduate. You also now have to take 4 writing-intensive courses.</p>

<p>I do feel like I am also going to learn excellent work habits, study skills, research skills and writing skills. Most courses are still intense, although there are some well-known courses with a light workload and lenient professors. It is not so hard to have multiple interests with the new distribution requirements, but if you want to double major between the Arts and Sciences and Engineering schools, <em>you</em> have to be the one to figure everything out. I’m not really interested in the Humanities, but I have met some amazing English / Anthropology professors who are really invested in their students’ success, buy us food, teach well, etc.</p>

<p>It is still “We make it tough for you so you can handle the world,” and I’ve grown to appreciate that. Because most students bond over the struggles, are very honest with their own problems, and are interested in other people’s dreams, background, personalities, etc. We can be very concerned with our futures and academics, but we also know how to relax and party and procrastinate and laugh off assignments and courses we’ve failed. Even the premeds. </p>

<p>When we’re deep in midterms and finals, we sometimes talk about how we wish we had gone somewhere easier, somewhere with more support and culture and more of a party life. But personally, if I had a second chance, I’d still come here. </p>

<p>I appreciate your honesty in posting all of this, and it’s definitely a reality that colleges screw people up academically, financially, emotionally, etc., and that needs to be more transparent to prospective students. I hope that you’ve found some catharsis and that you’re in a place where you aren’t beating yourself up about what’s happened at Hopkins, and that you’re taking steps forward to wherever you want to be at this point. God bless you :D</p>

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<p>This is so out of date. JHU is definitely not how you described it. How could it be when it has one of the most selective, sought after undergraduate programs in the country? The professors themselves are always making new majors and minors for undergrads, and with the opening of facilities such as the Brody Learning Commons and Undergraduate Teaching Labs, you can see how much has changed.</p>

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<p>Hopkins is significantly harder to get into than when you applied. Your other points are completely pointless and outdated at best. You’re extremely out of touch with reality and Hopkins as it stands today as other posters have alluded to. </p>