<p>I guess this is sour grapes here, but the problems continue in the lack of transparency at the next step- picking the winners of the actual scholarship and the $2500 that goes with it.
My daughter is from a state with a middling cut-off (Illinois) and scored a 236. The rest of her resume was good enough to ring the bell in college admissions. She is a first year at Princeton.
I have no idea why she wasn't chosen for a scholarship. To be fair, I can't be sure why she would be chosen either.<br>
Who knows how they decide? The $2500 would have been very significant at our family income.
Of course she is hard working and lucky, too. No major complaints. I just think the NMS folks are used to not being accountable for their decisions. Of course, so are admissions officers.</p>
<p>janieblue, looking at the numbers, Johnson181 would be almost a shoe-in as an instate applicant at Ga. Tech or North Carolina. Who are you kidding? Oh yeah, yourself.
I thought that Johnson181's post showed much maturity.</p>
<p>Maybe this point has already been made, but for those low income students, there's need-based aid, making NMS aid less important. My son missed the California cutoff for NMS semi by one point. It made no difference at all, nor would it have -- as an EFC=0 family and with his strong stats, he had his choice between full rides. </p>
<p>While I am sure there are low income students that take advantage of the NMS system, I do agree that a lot of the time, it seems like a marketing strategy for LACs, for the most part.</p>
<p>
[quote]
looking at the numbers, Johnson181 would be almost a shoe-in as an instate applicant at Ga. Tech or North Carolina.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>danas: What numbers? Johnson181 only told us that he made 209 on the PSAT. He would not even make the cut-off in NC for NM. Once again, UNC does not merely base acceptance on PSAT or SAT scores, but based on his PSAT score (which is all he gave us), his SAT would be fairly average as an instate applicant. More importantly, we'd have to know the rigor of the courseload he took in high school, and how well he did in them, along with a slew of other factors. My comment was based solely on his PSAT score, which is not at all outstanding. To say that he is a "shoe-in" as a NC instate applicant at UNC-CH, or at Georgia Tech, is wishful thinking. </p>
<p>Your comment also reflects that neither you nor he understands how many of the top instate students choose to apply (and ultimately to attend) UNC. That makes the application process much more competitive for the "average" or "below average" applicant, instate or otherwise. Again, we'd have to know a lot more about his academic background, but a 209 PSAT score would definitely not make him a "shoe-in." The average SAT score for the Fall 2007 class was 1302. The middle 50% scored between 1210-1400. (Over 80% are instate.) Again, we'd have to know more about him as an applicant, but unless <em>he</em> was a <em>she,</em> I don't think he'd be a "shoe-in" at Georgia Tech, either. To believe that reflects a certain ignorance about the caliber of both these schools, and certainly about the caliber of the instate students at UNC. Sorry.</p>
<p>Assuming a PSAT of 209 equates to a SAT of 2090, then that puts Johnson181 at the cusp of the top quartile of students at UNC. (2006 admit ranges, SAT CR/Math 1210-1390 -- we can extrapolate 1390 to equal 2085).</p>
<p>Whether that makes him a "shoe in" or merely highly likely to be admitted, the statement that *t you would not be at all competitive with in-state students * in post #100 is clearly false, as well as being hostile and rude.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Repeat after me: NMS is a marketing tool!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>O7DAd is entirely correct. Worse is that some colleges actually pay attention to this. Consider the following:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Screening is based SOLELY on a proprietary test administered under variable circumstances, a test that is coachable and not taken by a good number of kids for economic or social reasons. </p></li>
<li><p>Statistically, this test is not particularly accurate, although it correlates with SAT scores pretty well. From a psychometrics POV, using this test to select NM candidates is further flawed by ceiling effects and the lack precision (i.e. consistency from test sitting to test sitting) of this test at this score range. </p></li>
<li><p>the vast majority of semifinalists become finalists. Hence the "contest" is essentially one of PSAT scores.</p></li>
<li><p>this program is not "national" (no "national" competition. Just a series of state ones) and is not about "merit" (it is about PSAT score). Other than that, it is an interesting program.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>I find it curious that in spite of the obvious flaws in the selection process, colleges continue to pay undue attention to NM finalist status. I have no idea why, other than the obvious success of the College Board's marketing efforts.</p>
<p>Interestingly, once a kid starts college, programs such as this become meaningless. There are quite a few national level honors available to college students, and I don't know of one that uses exam scores in any way, much less as the key selection criterion!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Whether that makes him a "shoe in" or merely highly likely to be admitted, the statement that you would not be at all competitive with in-state students in post #100 is clearly false, as well as being hostile and rude.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>calmom: Once again, to automatically assume that one is a "shoe-in" at either UNC-CH or Georgia Tech (and for everyone else to assume that, too, given all we know is this 209 PSAT score), is simply ignorant. Sorry if you find that "hostile and rude," but to assume this, based on one PSAT score, is just silly. It does show a certain amount of ignorance about the school, their application process, and the caliber of instate students. (This is part and parcel of why there's so much disappointment surrounding college applications.) I'll revise my first post, then: He certainly may have a shot <em>if</em> he were an instate applicant, but even as an instate applicant, he would most definitely not be a "shoe-in," <em>unless</em> we knew a whole lot more about his academic background. </p>
<p>If I can find it, I'll post a link listing all the instate SAT scores from the latest class; from that, you can see how many top instate scorers are there (who choose to attend). That doesn't even include the ones who apply. Those scores would be even higher; consequently, that makes it much more competitive. Based on SAT score alone (and, once again, acceptance isn't solely based on this), he would have a lot of competition. Based on the information given here, neither he (nor you) can automatically assume an acceptance.</p>
<p>As an aside, one reason for relatively low scores on the PSAT possibly (probably?) reflects a high school that isn't very strong (classes aren't very rigorous). If the school is strong, one who scores high has almost certainly taken that rigorous courseload <em>and</em> done well. Let's face it, the PSAT simply isn't that difficult.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interestingly, once a kid starts college, programs such as this become meaningless.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, if a kid becomes a NMF and attends a school that recognizes NM , that can actually mean some kid gets to go to college who otherwise might not be able to afford it (thinking of those schools who will give free tuition to any NMF). Other schools might recognize NM in the form of $1,000-2,000 a year-- not so meaningless when every cent counts.</p>
<p>In addition, I know people love to say that no one pays attention to SAT scores once you go to college and get out in the work force, but in reality, there are a number of firms that actually ask for those scores in connection to internships, and even jobs after graduation. Even w/regard to future fellowships/scholarships, those scores are often required on applications. So, the SAT (and to a lesser extent, the PSAT) can often rear its ugly head years after you took the test-- like it or not. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
By danas
The rest of her resume was good enough to ring the bell in college admissions. She is a first year at Princeton.
I have no idea why she wasn't chosen for a scholarship. To be fair, I can't be sure why she would be chosen either.
[/quote]
You might already know. But according to NMSC web site, over all only half of those NMF would get $2500 scholarship. Among them only certain % is payable trough NMSC fund, the rest were either payable through college sponsors (UofC is one of them, but you have to put it as your first choice school, Princeton is not one of them) or through coroperative sponsors. Once you made to the NMF list, first they consider you if qualify for coroprative sponsored award, which I guess the easiest one. Then the college sponsored one. Only after this they draw fund from NMSC fund. No one will recieve double rewards from NMSC.....I agree whoever said, if your family is qualified for need-based FA, the NMF's money almost is nothing. But if your familhy is not qualified for need-based FA, the NMF's money is about the easiest way to get some finantial relief.</p>
<p>If your D is in Princeton and qualify for some FA, I'm not sure even if your D did get the NMF's money, there will be any help. AFAIK, most colleges would deduct your FA package money the same amount of the money you receive from other channels. But most colleges do this by deducting from the loan portion in your FA. But Princeton's FA package dose not include any loan portion for any bracket family incomes. Before HY anounce their changes P's FA was the most 'generouse ones' at the top schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, if a kid becomes a NMF and attends a school that recognizes NM , that can actually mean some kid gets to go to college who otherwise might not be able to afford it (thinking of those schools who will give free tuition to any NMF).
[/quote]
From the several ppl whose kids made into the NMF list, non of them chose to go to the college who offers free full free ride to NMF candidates. Most of them went to the college who offers 'need-based' FA only that their family income dose not qualify for.....kind of similar to Johnson181's situation here.</p>
<p>another NJmom: My comment above^ was based on this statement:
[quote]
interestingly, once a kid starts college, programs such as this become meaningless.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While you may not know anyone in your circle (or on CC) who chose to go to college that offers a free ride to NMF, rest assured there are plenty. (Isn't this what helped to elevate the Univ of Florida?) </p>
<p>To make a general statement that "these programs become meaningless" isn't necessarily true. Again, just in terms of money-- the roughly $4-8,000 that a NMF student can receive at those colleges that recognize it, not to mention the NM Scholarships of $2500, can be worthwhile and meaningful for many students. In regard to Johnson181, UNC does recognize NM, so if he applied and got in from out-of-state, he would be recognized with funds for being a NMF. I would expect Georgia Tech, another school of interest he mentioned, recognizes NM as well.</p>
<p>I have heard that test scores (on GRE tests) are important to currently enrolled college students who are applying for National Science Foundation fellowships for graduate school. I'm sure they are not the only selection criterion, but I have been told by people in the know that they are important.</p>
<p>tokenadult: Yes, and for many other fellowships for currently enrolled college students, the applications certainly ask about SAT scores, though how much they factor in the final decision is anybody's guess. PSAT scores do usually translate into similar SAT scores, and don't let anybody tell you that those scores become meaningless once you get into college. They're not the be-all and end-all, but neither do they disappear into oblivion.</p>
<p>janieblue,</p>
<p>Reread my post please. I agree that being a NM finalist can bring an individual some financial aid, and in some cases, free rides. This is non-trivial. It is also true that some UNDERGRADUATE fellowship programs request SAT scores. Why not? The applicants have not taken the GRE. But providing a SAT score is far different than saying they favor NM finalists, which is what my comment was about. </p>
<p>Regarding your statement
[quote]
In addition, I know people love to say that no one pays attention to SAT scores once you go to college and get out in the work force, but in reality, there are a number of firms that actually ask for those scores in connection to internships, and even jobs after graduation. Even w/regard to future fellowships/scholarships, those scores are often required on applications.
[/quote]
this is true, again, in some cases for undergraduate fellowships, but not for graduate, with one exception that I could find: The Water Conservation Fellowship (a national biggie?). The Health Physics Society Fellowships allow SAT scores only for those that don't have GRE scores. Math for America wants them for career changers but is willing to skip them - because these folks often have not taken the GRE.</p>
<p>Internships? Perhaps. Again, because nothing better is available.</p>
<p>At any rate, I did not state SATs don't matter once one starts college. They can, in oddball cases. And I'm sure someone somewhere will be impressed by a NM finalist mention on a CV. But not if they understand the process of NM finalist selection, and not if the person has done anything else more noteworthy.</p>
<p>newmassdad: Well, I did read your post, #106, and I was simply responding to your statement:
[quote]
Interestingly, once a kid starts college, programs such as this become meaningless.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nowhere in that particular post did you mention that NMF "can bring an individual some financial aid, and in some cases, free rides." You are correct, that financial gain for many students is a "non-trivial" byproduct of this program, which suggests that it is not "meaningless."</p>
<p>I agree that NMF (and SAT scores) are only a very minor part of someone's CV once they start college, and especially if they have gone on to do "anything else more noteworthy." And, yes, I believe certain internships may ask for them "because nothing better is available," in terms of directly comparing applicants across the board w/regard to academic ability (GPA's can vary so much, depending on the school, the courseload, inflation/deflation, etc). I also agree they are probably not used as the main selection criteria. Nevertheless, those scores are often required, so--again-- my point is that they don't simply become "meaningless" once a student gets into college. </p>
<p>You may have meant something else in your earlier post (had something else in your head when you wrote it), but I only responded (and can only respond) to what you actually posted. Thanks for your subsequent clarification.</p>
<p>janieblue,</p>
<p>I guess you can't distinguish between "program" as in "NM scholarship program" and "test" or "exam" as in "SAT test"? </p>
<p>I suppose by some kind of logic one could think "program" refers to "sat program" but not in my neck of the woods. And to think "program" is not even a pronoun... FWIW, the CB DOES refer to the "sat program" : "The College Board's SAT Program consists of the SAT Reasoning TestTM (SAT) and SAT Subject TestsTM. " Since this thread has had no mention of the Subject Tests, it would be tough to interpret any of these posts as referring to that!</p>
<p>So, do we agree that the SAT is not "meaningless" once a kid starts college? I think so. The SAT is not meaningless, just rather trivial once college begins. If you don't believe this, just wait a few years when your own kid has some miles (or years) on him/her.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess you can't distinguish between "program" as in "NM scholarship program" and "test" or "exam" as in "SAT test"?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>newmassdad: Sure, I can tell the difference. ;) Clearly, though, the Program is connected to the scholarship (ie., the money). A student doesn't get any money, nor is even in the running for any money, unless he or she makes a certain score. Hence, the test score is connected to the Program, which is connected to the money that the student may eventually receive (rendering the test score, and by extension, the Program, meaningful). It's sort of like 6 degrees of separation. </p>
<p>Even if a university doesn't participate in the NM program (doesn't recognize a NMF with money), there's a reason why universities persist in letting people know how many NMF and NM Scholars they have. Clearly, for whatever reasons-- they don't think the program is meaningless. </p>
<p>I also agree and am aware that the SAT is not the PSAT. I was merely pointing out that the PSAT score usually gives a close approximation of what one might make on the SAT.</p>
<p>Yes, I agree (and said so in my earlier post) that the SAT is not meaningless once a kid starts college. Neither do I think the PSAT is, either (and, by extension, the NM Program). At least, for those kids who became NMF or NM Scholars, they recognize how meaningful their NMF status is-- every semester they see that money in their account-- or their tuition is paid. ;) </p>
<p>While I do not believe for a minute that one's final SAT score is a deciding factor (or even a very big factor?) in certain fellowships or internships for which one may compete as an undergraduate, I honestly don't know how "trivial" it is. In fact, a very high score may be a major factor in securing a second look in the first place. I wouldn't know for sure, unless I was a recruiter or on one of those committees.</p>
<p>Finally, the only reason I know that none of this disappears completely, is because my "own kid has some miles (or years) on him/her." I certainly agree that once you've graduated, the SAT, PSAT, and the Programs become meaningless (well, until that kid has a kid of his/her own, and then the madness starts all over again). ;)</p>
<p>I hope that clears up my position for you.</p>
<p>if you were competing against the National scores, then I understand calling it a National test. But you are only competing for the "National" Merit Scholarships" against those in your "State" </p>
<p>In our case we do NOT have an ax to grind. My son got a 2390on his SAT's. I am looking out for our fellow Nutmegers.
We are not advantaged. We are a 1 income family, living on a High school teacher's salary.</p>
<p>just to make a slight correction to your comment… my son got a 2390 on his test! He MORE than qualified. i was more concerned about other students in my state who don’t get the NATIONAL recognition I feel they deserve. I am a PUBLIC high school teacher and I know that many of my students fall short of being semi finalists because of the HIGH standard scores needed in Connecticut. :)</p>
<p>WTH? this thread is almost three years old!</p>