Do you think students, especially high school students researching colleges, should be steered away from certain majors based on their academic performance in high school?
I’ve noticed lately a lot of students with very low scores (GPA and SAT/ACT) posting on CC to get help choosing schools to study very difficult subjects such as engineering and pre-med, and I can’t help but think that those students should probably be steered in a different direction. I don’t know where I’d draw the line, but it seems to me that, generally speaking (there are exceptions of course), a sub 1000 SAT score combined with a C to B- average in high school would indicate that a student is not capable of handling the rigor of engineering and would not be a quality engineer.
I think it sorts itself out, as @doschicos indicated. On a similar note, my friend’s daughter got accepted to a reach school ( reach for her) but was told to apply undecided rather than apply as a direct admit to her major. She was told by an admissions counselor at an informal interview that if she applies directly to her major she will get rejected to the school and if she applies undecided she had a 50/50 chance of acceptance. Well…I was just told she may transfer because she really wants this major. The sad part is that she got into it originally at some other schools she applied to.
Not steered away, but I think that it would be helpful for guidance counselors or college academic advisors or parents to point out that engineering or medicine is a particularly difficult path and one that may be quite different from what the student expects.
Then, it might make sense to ask ALL students who are aiming themselves in these directions – not just the apparently underqualified – what they might like to do instead if they find that engineering or pre-med doesn’t work out for them or that they simply don’t like it. The answers could help the student choose an appropriate college and program.
The prospective pre-med who says “If pre-med doesn’t work out for me, I’d like some other job in health care. I’ve always wanted to work in health care in some way” might need to be in a different place than the one who says “If I can’t be a doctor, I want to major in business.” The prospective engineer whose alternate major is economics might need to plan a different freshman program than the one who would like to be a biology teacher if engineering doesn’t work out.
Why? If a student wants to enter a particular field and a college is willing to admit them and let them enroll in that major, what right do you have to attempt to “sort” them into something you believe is a more appropriate field? By all accounts, the student described in [this report](Sir John Gurdon, Nobel Prize winner, was 'too stupid' for science at school) should have pursued anything but science. This wasn’t the opinion of strangers on the internet; it was written by a teacher who knew him well. And he was wrong. How many other brilliant minds would be lost to humanity if we didn’t permit them to try?
Some students really come into their own in college. They have an interest and pursue it. So…my answer to this question YMMV.
Really, a lot,of students change majors multiple times in college. Probably more beneficial for those “on the fence” to pick a college with a wide variety of majors so they have options if the first choice doesn’t work out.
http://www.sdsmt.edu/Admissions/Apply/Admissions-Requirements/ indicates that South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, a small engineering-focused school, will automatically admit a frosh applicant with a 2.75 HS GPA and 1130 SAT (580 math), and will consider for admission a frosh applicant with a 2.75 GPA and 940 SAT (480 math).
There is, of course, the pathway of starting at a community college, doing well enough there, and then transferring to a four year school to complete an engineering degree, for students who do not have the high school record to attend an affordable four year school to begin with.
I’d rather steer a student into a challenge than away from one. I think we should be honest with kids about the challenges ahead of them, but we should also be encouraging them to rise and grow to meet those challenges, not to flee from them.
e.g. “Pre-med will be extremely difficult if you continue at your current level of performance. It’s a gauntlet designed to weed out many students. It is often graded on an unforgiving curve. Unless you bring your absolute best, it is YOU who will be weeded out. So bring it! Bring your best!”
Some kids just ramp up slower. Some kids tank high school on purpose because they are bored (I was one). Some kids are very T-shaped (academic talent strongly focused in one particular area), which works poorly in high school and much more effectively in college.
I wouldn’t steer those kids at all, but I would tell them all I can about the road they are driving on.
@ucbalumnus, yep, schools like NMTech aren’t hard to get in to, but that’s why it has a high drop-out rate (22% 4Y graduation rate).
In any case, I’m all fine with kids sorting themselves in or out of majors if money was not a concern. For most people, however, money is a concern, and it’s tragic if a kid embarks on engineering or pre-med, sinks in large amounts of money (or takes on large loans with the expectation that they would be able to pay them off), gets bad grades, and thus can’t transfer in to a program they can handle but is close to their interests (like nursing) or ends up going to a program like CNC machining which they could have entered initially out of HS (essentially wasting money or taking on onerous loans because of a false start).
And even if you don’t care about wasting money at all, bad grades can limit your grad school opportunities. In the American system, you’ll carry them forever. Wouldn’t it make a lot more sense for kids who aren’t prepared or mature enough for engineering to take classes that are easier (at a CC, for instance) or enter a trade program or even work or join the military first rather than carrying a bunch of D’s and F’s on a transcript?
In engineering, no. There are schools that will accept lower gpa/score, and they are still likely to find decent engineering job after graduation. Probably won’t design the next processor at Intel. Or study theoretical physics at Harvard PhD program.
But there are many good engineering jobs for them with a BS degree, especially at local companies, much better than what they would have gotten with a non-engineering major.
^That’s what my middle son did. He knew he wasn’t ready for college at 18, so he took off for 2 1/2 gap years, doing volunteer work overseas. That gave him the motivation to start college to become a teacher. His first semester, he got the highest grade in his statistics class and made Dean’s List. He NEVER got grades that good in high school.
As mentioned earlier, NMTech is a school like that, and a relatively high percentage of their grads go on to get a PhD. It also has a 22% 4Y graduation rate.
I think the question should be asked, but the student should not necessarily be discouraged. As mentioned above, many students don’t find or maximize their abilities until later and could be successful in college where they weren’t in HS.
But I’m going to rant a bit here. Feel free to skip ahead.
I really believe our country’s educational system and society don’t give students many options. Some kids hit upon a career choice early that happens to turn into something they like once they begin to study/practice it. A certain percentage of those students will have hit on one they’ll actually see a good ROI from. Many high school students, though, look around themselves and see doctor, nurse, lawyer, teacher, engineer, accountant, etc. as the choices they know anything about. They may take an interest assessment that tells them they’d be a great funeral director or dairy plant manager but have no interest in that field. Then as a HS sophomore or junior, everyone suddenly wants to know what they plan to do with the rest of their life and where they’ll go to get educated for that. They may know a daycare teacher doesn’t make enough money to support a family or pay back student loans, or they may think their own preferences or indecision is not the right answer, so they say something like medicine or engineering.
I don’t know the best solution but one aspect of overpaying and being overcharged for college is that too many students just don’t know what they want to do when they leave. As we decide how to fix the student loan debt and other issues with higher education, this is an important aspect.
The US higher educational system actually offers more flexibility and routes for kids to find what they like to do and their passions than those of most other countries. In unis in most other countries (first world and otherwise), you typically decide what subject to study before uni and then study only that. If you find out that you don’t like it or don’t have the aptitude for it, the only option is to drop out and start all over again. And I’m not even mentioning tracking. Countries like Germany and Switzerland have strong apprenticeship systems (programmers in Germany and bankers and Switzerland typically rise up from the apprentice ranks rather than go to college), but you either head down the apprenticeship track or uni track pretty early in HS.
@purpleTitan Interesting. I admit I haven’t looked into other countries’ systems. My D was undecided and I think there is a push among many universities to help these students find some path once they get on campus. It doesn’t really help HS students who feel pressured to choose a career earlier than that or choose careers they may not be best suited for or vice versa.
Yes, in some other countries, students have to decide on educational and associated career paths as early as middle school. In the US educational system, some educational paths can be decided on as late as sophomore year of college, though some (which have more requirements, longer prerequisite sequences, and/or selective admission to the major) may need to be decided as a high school senior applying to colleges (applying to the majors as well).
However, a student who starts college at a community college can delay the major selection process, since s/he can remain there almost indefinitely (within cost and similar constraints, though community colleges tend to be lower cost than four year schools) as a “sophomore”, changing intended majors several times. Once a student enters (or applies to in some cases) a four year school, s/he is “on the clock” to decide a major and graduate in a reasonable amount of time.
