That does seem odd for a 15 person seminar.
Is there a quantitative center? D’s campus has one, like a writing help center but for math/science. Tutoring is actually one of the services offered there.
Is there a First Year Academic Dean? If so, that person should be contacted. With your daughter’s confidence and your $ at stake, I think its worth escalating, first by your daughter.
I didn’t flub my first computer programming course until the final project. In retrospect I wish I hadn’t taken it first semester freshman year because the next year I knew lots of CS majors who could have helped me! It does sound like the best course is for her to drop it and she should at least find out from her advisor how best to go about that. It seems crazy to have to struggle for two more weeks if she doesn’t have to.
I do disagree a bit with JHS, a freshman seminar should be a bit more supportive than a regular class. Perhaps she really doesn’t have a brain that is wired for computer programming, or perhaps she just missed something small, but critical. This college doesn’t have something like a math help program does it? When I was in college there were volunteers at the library who just hung around waiting for students with questions. I went to them once or twice when I just couldn’t see my way through a problem. Most of the math guys are also pretty decent programmers.
@OHMomof2 No quantitative center, just writing. There is a lot offered at the learning center to support the usual suspects, Calc, Physics, Chem, COS, both in a group and one on one setting, but since this is a seminar, not a regularly offered course there is nothing available. Plus freshman seminars are supposed to be relatively easy!
@doschicos there is a “director of studies” whom she met with today. Her advice was to keep working, that was pretty much it, and @justonedad I believe that would be the top of the chain.
Can she go to the learning center and ask the CS tutor or staff for help? Since the seminar is theoretically a frosh level course, a CS tutor should be able to help her even though it is not the usual intro CS course.
@ucbalumnus my mistake, no COS tutors, I meant to type Calc, Physics, Chem and Eco(the intro COS class must be supported internally), and @mathmom, when she met with the “director or studies” studies today she specifically asked if there were any support or tutoring options that she could use, and she offered her no suggestions, just “keep working and good luck.” It seems if any resources were out there she would be the one to know?
Does she know any CS majors who can help?
I apologize if I missed this but has she asked any of the other 14 students for help?
Generally colleges don’t have resources to help students with programming. Trying to pick everything up over the course of the semester is very difficult. She’s probably best off withdrawing if she can and taking a different seminar next semester if it’s required. If she can drop this class she’ll probably have a much nicer time for the rest of the semester.
Based on your original post I also wouldn’t be surprised if her professor was useless. I’ve dealt with that a lot and it can make classes nightmarish if the coursework is at all challenging. Ultimately some professors should be relegated solely to research just so they don’t screw up their department’s undergrads.
For a little perspective I’ve been in a similar situation. When I transferred I took a sophomore level CS course that was very poorly taught. The course barely had structure and the workload was triple that of any other class that semester. I didn’t know any majors in the department so I didn’t realize the professor was well known for being an inept teacher. I mention this because you should tell your daughter that her difficulty in this seminar isn’t really her problem. It sounds like she was unlucky with course selection and/or her professor.
So sorry that your D is going through this.
Even though so far she’s not had luck getting help/suggestions/support, I’d still encourage her to try to find help/suggestions/support. If you can identify possibilities–a dean of students? student tutoring center? other professors in the problem department who’ve taught similar classes? her dorm advisor?–she can ask those people if they can suggest resources to help. As tough as it is for you, let her fight on the front lines by herself. You can offer strategic help from the rear.
Are there other women in the course? Have your D approach them first. If there’s a women in CS type organization, that’s another useful resource to tap.
D1, a CS major, had a tough time with one professor in an upper division course who wasn’t an effective teacher. His office hours weren’t helpful; she thought she was going to fail the course despite the immense amount of time and effort she was putting in. She ended up getting support from her advisor, and, eventually, from the department chair. Something must have happened behind the scenes after that semester, because the prof’s teaching underwent a dramatic change for the better. That was entirely due to D1 voicing her concerns to TPTB. We the parents, as frustrated as we were, said nothing. Maybe not possible for an undeclared frosh, but I’d still advise her to explore how she can make her voice heard.
For future semesters/quarters, if she’s not already going to professor’s office hours before there’s trouble, have her do that in the future. There’s always a question of some sort to ask about something interesting from class or the reading. Then, if problems come up later in the term (academic difficulties, illness), the professor may be more sympathetic/helpful than if they’ve never seen the student before. Both of my D’s made a point to do this.
D2 is at a small LAC that has intensive writing small frosh seminars. These were very much intended to be supportive bridge experiences, not something where students had to work things out for themselves by asking their peers but not their professors. Such a pity that at least this particular department at your D’s school doesn’t take a similar approach.
If you’re lost and fall behind early in a programming class, it’s extremely difficult to catch up. Especially for someone who’s not into programming in the first place, it’s best to just drop and take the W rather than hoping for a miracle.
I’m sorry to hear that the prof and TA were so terrible. That’s really a shame.
Just as an aside, learning programming concepts for someone not into programming can be quite tough. I remember as a junior CS major trying to help a freshman friend in an intro programming class. It was the same class I had taken a couple years earlier. She was completely unable to grasp some of the concepts, which was pretty frustrating for both of us. Anyway it turned out she was a liberal arts major and for some reason had signed up for the technical-track intro programming. She switched over to the non-major programming class and did fine there.
A good mentor could help significantly.
The problem is how to find one.
Also it helps if the programming skills should be obtained long before a person takes a class that requires it. When a person can learn something in a self-directed pace, everything will likely be easier. True learning can not be rushed.
BTW, I really hate the culture of everything being rushed in the schooling here. It is as if you are not smart enough when you are not among one of the fastest. No wonder so many software products are so low quality. I had a chance to meet an intern not long ago. I noticed two things: It seems he has learned a lot based on the number of classes he has taken, but whatever he has learned is very superficial (just touch the surface of each topic.) Also, it is extremely difficult for us to know what he knows (to what extent) because he has the tendency to act if he knew it when he actually does not. Maybe this is what the industry and college expect the young generation to do: They have to overachieve tons of stuff and pad their resume otherwise they won’t be hired.
As regard to have a CS programming component which is attached to a not purely CS course, I also despise this practice. If the students need the programming skill before taking the class, the school may even need to “screen” the students before allowing such ill-prepared students to take this class. Also, the school needs to have a separate prerequisite class that helps the student to get ready for such a class that requires programming skills. College should not be a place where the students are tortured by being always rush, rush, rush!
(I am of the opinion that the majority of people can learn how to program to some acceptable level. Some people just need more time than others, maybe in a different way.)
At one time, there was an instructor who wrote a large piece of buggy software for his own research project. The method he chose to solve the problem? He dumped this giant piece of buggy code to his students and these students struggled to fix the problem so that they could get the previous A. This is a true story. (I do not claim the professor of OP’s D is like this instructor.)
I guess that is not my dd’s college as you can drop very late, like the end of the class almost. This doesn’t seem right for a freshman seminar, no. TA’s should have formal office hours posted for getting help. My dd struggled with MV calc as her first math class in college. She went around to different people and didn’t stop until someone finally said something that clicked. An advisor did suggest she not pursue that class but she ignored that as she had always done well in math and took the AIME etc. was consider majoring in physics. She did go on to be a ,math-cs major and a CS phD program. She was introduced to programming in physics class then took a 2 semester intro sequence without other prior experience. And most everyone else in that class, which was for majors did have experience in HS. Tell her to take heart and keep talking to CS people and keep trying to get help until she can decide at that drop date w/o financial penalty that you mention. People in the CS dept are usually helpful in my dd’s experience. Anyway I tell this so you can tell your dd to take heart, others have struggled and succeeded later.
Also I agree never mention panic attack, it just gives a bad impression. Only mention that to the health center if you are really having one.
There is still time. Rather than hope for a miracle, she can go out for a jog, a swim, or whatever it takes to clear her head, then sit down yet again with the latest programming assignment. In early programming assignments it is not unusual to make many attempts before finding the right solution. The computer doesn’t care how big and watery your eyes get. It only cares that your code is error-free and logical.
She has a safety net. She can take that W up through week 9. Meanwhile she owes it to herself to try to crack the remaining assignments. That’s all she needs to do now to make this a successful experience (even with a W).
Has your daughter talked with the other students in the seminar? One benefit of the seminar is usually a small class size and the students can work in tandem and help each other. If she finds she is the odd person out in either just not getting it or having no programming experience, that should inform her about staying in or not. Are the other students just as lost? Do they all have previous programming experience? How are they approaching the problems?
If this course is outside her interest, the W will have minimal effect. I took Bioengineering as a college freshman and like your daughter, found myself floundering midway through the course. I ended up withdrawing with a pass.The W is just a random letter on my transcript, even more so because I ended up in a discipline far from bioengineering. Occurring the fall of my freshman year underscores it was a newbie or youthful mistake. That was the only W I took. Afterward, I looked more carefully at the course descriptions and talk to people (students and professors) before signing up.
One other suggestion would be to find out if the other girls are struggling. On average, boys come to college with more coding experience. If this is a problem that is impacting multiple girls in the class disparately, they may become more responsive.
Tell her not to be discouraged if she has to drop. Learning when to drop is a skill to be learned, and not something to be ashamed of. She should just try to not let it adversely impacts her other classes.
Thanks again to everyone for the support and advice. I really do have to shake my head when I read the following from the school website:
“There is perhaps no better way to begin this journey than by taking a freshman seminar. Open only to members of the freshman class, the program is designed to provide first-year students with an early opportunity to EXPERIENCE THE EXCITEMENT OF WORKING CLOSELY with a professor and a small group of fellow students on a topic of special interest. As you will see in our roster of seminar offerings, the variety of topics and faculty members to be found in this program is truly extraordinary. Indeed, many of our students feel that their freshman seminar was ONE OF THIER MOST ENJOYABLE AND MEANINGFUL ACADEMIC EXPERIENCES — one that enabled them to discover new intellectual passions and form ENDURING RELATIONSHIPS WITH FACULTY MEMBERS and fellow students.”
Ironically this is her only elective for the academic year, and she was so excited about it based on the course description. She had to apply for the seminar and write an essay expressing her interest. The professor picked her from over a hundred applicants, and even mentioned to the Director of Studies how impressed he was with the essay and that he couldn’t wait to meet her.
To answer the questions about working with the other students, that has been kind of complicated. She has intensive EC obligations which really limit meeting with other students at times that are convenient for them, and to make it more logistically difficult none of the students live near her. After she started floundering she felt it was really unfair to expect other students that she barely knows to meet with her at inconvenient times and then to have to invest their time in bailing her out rather than in a mutually beneficial working relationship. Plus everyone is working on separate programs designed around the topics and data they choose so it is not like someone can simply glance at her work and point out where she went wrong.
imo, part of becoming an adult is learning when to cut your losses and knowing when something isn’t for you. that doesn’t mean quit because just because its hard, but it does mean to evaluate the situation and recognize when the negatives outweigh the positives. as a grown-up, if I wasn’t good at say, programming, I wouldn’t probably stay in a job that I hated that focused on it…i’d move on. people do not all have the same interests or aptitudes…hence the reason we have professions ranging from engineers to dog walkers.
the fact that she tried should be enough. she utilized every strategy she could come up with to fix the issue.
of that she should be proud.
At DS’s school you can take certain classes pass/fail. If she keeps it can she do that? That way it wouldn’t affect her GPA. Also I would not wait until the last day to drop. At the very least have her drop it a day or 2 early. Just in case something happens and say her computer crashes on the last day to drop.
@MichiganGeorgia Oddly the freshman seminars cannot be taken P/F, and although I agree that ideally she shouldn’t wait until the final drop date unfortunately there is a situation that requires her to wait until the very last day. I did encourage her to set up an appointment with her academic advisor so that she has permission in hand.