@NuScholar
If that helps you fell better sure. But rankings, job placement, and grad school placement suggests otherwise. This convo is about HBCU’S and specifically the one’s in GA. So if that’s the case Morehouse ,Spelman and CAU are not only overpriced but overrated.
And no GTech does not attracted stronger students test score wise.
2017 freshman class profile -
Ga Tech
1360-1490 30-34 http://admission.gatech.edu/content/freshman-admission
Emory
1360-1490 31-34 http://apply.emory.edu/discover/fastfacts.php
Also Emory has higher GPA avg, and more holistic admissions so better students with EC’s, stats aren’t everything.
For the last 150 years Emory is the dominant school in Ga, and that’s not changing anytime soon.
@ucbalumnus You always speak the truth. I have a lot of friends who did that program and it was the best of all worlds, but 50K plus an extra year of school changes everything for most.
@VANDEMORY1342 My son is open for whatever school gives him the best education and his early list (Morehouse, Howard, NC&AT, Emory, Georgia Tech, MIT, and Tulane) is an eclectic one. I will make sure he gets an in-state safety. My son’s Godfather and a whole host of my friends have been pushing Morehouse since he was in diapers. I think he doesn’t mind being closer to home but I think his major (still trying to decide between Computer Engineering and Computer Science) may influence where he ends up.
@NuScholar You remind me of my brother-in-law because he believes in the mission of HBCUs more than anyone that I know (I can feel that same passion with you). With me, you are speaking the gospel to the congregation, but we both know the strengths and weaknesses of HBCUs better than most, so I just want my kids to make their own informed choice based on what works best for them.
Lots of students enter college at least somewhat undecided. For such students, consider whether all of the possible majors of interest are available and not highly competitive to declare or change into.
Note also that how colleges handle computer science and computer engineering as majors can differ. For example, some may have them as distinct majors, but others may offer a CS or CSE (computer science and engineering) major where a student can use in-major elective choices to emphasize software/theory (typically called CS) or hardware (typically called CE). CE may also be part of an ECE (electrical and computer engineering) major at some schools.
I’m a fairly high achieving African American high school student. When applying, I had little interest in going to any HBCUs. We live in a predominantly white area, go to a white church, and all my friends are white. While I obviously am not uncomfortable or afraid of other African Americans, I felt that suddenly attending a majority-black institution for the first time ever would be a huge culture shock.
My cousin goes to Howard and is extremely happy there. For a while, I was interested in Howard because he is on the debate team and told me how awesome the Howard debate team is. I went to an HBCU college fair and was told that I could be eligible for high merit scholarships at Howard. What shut the door on Howard was the rudeness and disorganization of the undergraduate admissions department when my mother tried to schedule a visit and interview. My cousin and his mother told us they also felt that Howard’s departments were all very disorganized; it was hard to manage paperwork, schedule events, payments, etc. We took this advice to heart and my parents realized that they didn’t want to deal with such chaos for the next 4 years. I have heard others complain about similar things at Howard or other HBCUS.
While it’s not for me, I’d never tell someone not to attend an HBCU. My parents have friends who have gone to Howard, had a wonderful time, and become very successful professionals. They are simply not the right fit for every black person, and many African American students would genuinely be happier at other institutions. Both my parents went to PWIs and enjoyed their time at college. I only applied to PWIs (diverse enough and tolerant, however), and have received merit scholarships that are superior or comparable to Howard’s. I also think I’ll fit in well wherever I go.
My sons go to a Catholic HS that has traditionally educated the political and economic African American elite of our city. Several go to Howard every year, and I only hear good things about it. Howard’s graduates certainly do well when they come back here.
@SuperGymnast_04 I just wanted to say congratulations to you for finding what you were looking for in your college search. You chose what was best for you, which is all I want for my children as well.
@ucbalumnus Funny you should mention the differences between the 2 majors. My son likes both the software and hardware sides of computers and he truly wants to do both. He will be spending some time this summer trying to figure out more about how to “merge his interests” and the schools that will get him where he “thinks” he wants to go (I always have a hard time with believing that a 16 year old knows what they want to do when they grow up because I haven’t even figured that out yet).
A school where the CS/CSE/CE/ECE/EECS major has sufficient in-major elective options and free elective space to allow him to cover the range of his interests may be preferable if he wants to take a greater range of course work across those areas.
But that probably means diving into degree requirements and course catalogs at the various schools to see which will offer him the greatest opportunity to do that.
@vandemory1342 The freshman profile for Emory you posted is for admitted students only, so if you look at the scores and class rank of students that actually enrolled you’ll see just like everybody else did that Ga. Tech is attracting stronger students on average. And of course most admitted students don’t actually enroll in Emory … many of Emory ranking obsessed applicants see Emory as a safety school if they are rejected from their top choices of any Ivy League school or one of the top 10 elite schools (Chicago, Stanford, MIT, Duke) which Emory (#21) likely won’t ever be giving they dropped last year from 20 to 21. Emory’s trajectory isn’t looking good.
And yes the conversation was about HBCUs but you’re the one that went on a lengthy tangent about Emory so I addressed it. And no, Spelman, Morehouse, and CAU are not overrated. For example, Spelman just reached a record number of applications last month and is responsible for producing the highest number of black women with PhDs in STEM. There’s so much bragging I can do on the AUC institutions but I said enough and don’t want to get into an argument.
@vistajay Howard has great relationships with the best private schools across the nation. Phillip Exeter, considered to be the best college preparatory school in the nation, has sent multiple students to Howard in over the last 10 years … there’s something so special and alluring about Howard that overshadows everything else (rankings, cost, administrative woes, etc). So many students fall in love when they visit and just can’t get their mind off of Howard.
When it comes to HBCUs recruiting students from highly regarded private college preparatory schools: Howard is #1, Spelman is #2, and Morehouse and Hampton are tied for #3.
@NuScholar
You’re something else, and its funny coming from a person that went to an HBCU of all places, with a 23 median on the act on a GOOD year. You of all people should know standardized test scores don’t mean much. Emory has always been historically ranked around 20 and it’s standing on the global scale does not change year to year. As I said, the enrolled stats for the class of 2021 have not been posted yet, but I’m sure Emory’s will be higher. What you probably don’t get is that Emory has had the highest SAT scores n the state for over 100 years. This has only recently changed in 2012, and now seems that is has shifted back into Emory’s favor. So Gtech had a great 5 year run on the SAT front, and only the SAT front as Emory has always had higher GPA’s and better EC’s. If Emory is a safety for the Ivy’s than what is GaTech. In fact I’m sure most Morehouse students couldn’t get into UGA. Some humility on your front would be nice, as comparing Emory to HBCU’s is laughable. Also almost half of Emory undergrad applied ED/ED2 so Emory was there first or second choice. Im confused that you know the ranking history of a school you never went to.
What you didn’t comprehend from my earlier post was that HBCU’s need to defend the cost of there institutions especially the private ones. Emory does not, as they can enroll there whole class full pay and Emory would still have much higher quality class than any HBCU. It would be better to compare HBCU’s to PWI’s that they are most similar to like Georgia southern U, SUNY’s, Texas A&M, Mercer etc.
@bernie12
Read what she said, I’m laughing. She’s defending her favorite HBCU’s by attacking Emory.
Whoa everyone… Let’s just take a deep breath. I think both sides have to listen to one another (don’t have to agree). @VANDEMORY1342 , I think you are not seeing what makes Spelman great. You see the 23 average ACT score, but what I see is from matriculating in the AUC are an entire roster of women who have received graduate degrees from the most elite institutions in America and are making the world a better place. I am 20 years removed from school and I don’t keep in touch with many Spelmanites anymore, but they are literally leaders in there fields and their families. You are quoting the stats from 18 year olds when I am more interested in the stats of my children and students when they are 38 years old. @NuScholar, no need to push down an obviously great school in Emory to make a point. I am proud to see African American women such as the both of you becoming educated and becoming leaders in our communities. HBCUs can help the downtrodden among us learn how to compete, but I have also watched them teach the best among us become elite. Both of my kids have 3.8+ UW GPA, standardized test score in the top 1-2 percent of all students and at least ok extracurriculars and I have no qualms that they would get what they need to thrive, whether it be Emory or the HBCUs they are looking at. I have read both of your posts for a while and the ultimate goal is to help kids (and even more us parents) navigate the entire college process. You are both role models and while you don’t have to agree, I hate to see you beat each other up.
@ChangeTheGame
I never said I didn’t see the novelty of HBCU’s, however I was revealing that comparing HBCU’s to elite private and publics was a fools errand. Getting HBCU students to elite grad schools with lower GRE,GMAT, etc scores should not be the goal. However closing the educational disparity between different ethnicities in this country should be the goal. That means less emphasis on trying to do what elite schools do. Finding value in HBCU’s doesn’t stem from how close they can be to schools like Emory but instead should be, how close are they to schools like Ga State. A school that GRADUATES the largest number of minority students in the country, giving them a chance at a bountiful career. Right now HBCU’s fail at mimicking both.
“avoid the condescending label of “Ivy League dropout””
That’s not a thing. People don’t use any such condescending label. Google it – you get a lot of hits about Mark Zuckerberg. They aren’t condescending. Anyway, speaking as a transfer myself, no one cares whether I started as a freshman or not. I’m a member of my class.
If indeed someone who transferred from Harvard to an HBCU would be made fun of or shamed for coming there, that doesn’t speak well of the supportive HBCU community that is supposed to be the point.
@VANDEMORY1342 Do you really believe that HBCUs fail at giving there students bountiful careers? I went to dinner with a small group of HBCU grads that I have know for almost 25 years back in November. MD graduate from Duke, Low level Executive at Fortune 20 company with grad degree from Tulane, Non-Profit Head (Retired at 38 from high flying tech career), advertising exec, me, and my daughter. All were upper middle class but me. I know so many high flyers, but I am 20 years removed from undergrad, so my friends and I are just starting to enter our peak earning years. HBCUs are not perfect and have issues, but they where almost our only choice for most African Americans up until the 1960’s. I am proud that Georgia State has educated so many African American students because my goal is to get children educated. There is a path to greatness from every school if you are willing to work for it. Greatness for me personally is giving glory to God, loving my wife, raising my children, retire very comfortably one day (well on the way), and giving back (I tutor middle schoolers in math weekly). My HBCU gave me the belief that I could have it all, even from my background (inner city single parent record that continues to play in black communities). So I would never compare a HBCU to an elite private/public because HBCUs mission is to help a historic marginalized group. The freedom to go to any school we want was because of the efforts of HBCU alums (Thurgood Marshall, MLK, The A&T 4, Medger Evers and on and on.). It is also why I will alway support them even though my family could look the other way. The standardized tests that you listed tend to have lower scores for African Americans when compared to other races even when they go to elite schools don’t they?
@ChangeTheGame
I’m not sure if you’re gas-lighting me or if you didn’t comprehend what I wrote. However lets not be facetious. Those graduates would have been successful no matter where they went. However if a school like Ga State graduates that many minority students that otherwise would not had been in college to begin with, is an awesome feat that HBCU’s which were tasked to do that very job are failing to do. AGAIN getting students to elite grad schools are not the goals of HBCU’s, as they are not elite themselves. That shouldn’t be what makes them valuable, doing what Ga State does would make them more valuable. And Yes URM students a elites have lower tests scores on avg, I’m sure you have personal experience or examples with/of that.
Georgia State is quite large, so it is easy for it to put up large numbers here. However, CSU Fullerton is larger, has a similar percentage of non-white domestic students, and has a higher graduation rate than Georgia State, so your claim is probably false (though it would probably be true if you wrote “black” rather than “minority”, since CSU Fullerton’s non-white population is mostly Latino).
The vast majority of students accepted to both Emory and GeorgiaTech do not attend. Both Emory and GeorgiaTech have a similar or lower yield than both Moorehouse and UGA. According to Parchment, GeorgiaTech applicants tend to be interested in top engineering schools like GeorgiaTech, rather than ivies. Specifically students who applied to GeorgiaTech were most likely interested in Michigan, Berkeley. Stanford, UGA, and MIT. While students applying to Emory were more likely to be interested in other private colleges with strong academics and reputation like Emory, especially ones in the southeast. The most common ones were Vanderbilt, Duke, Cornell, NYU, and Harvard.
Considering the large difference in student population and different requirements for different programs within the schools, comparing test scores is misleading. That said, the difference in scores of the full student body is too small to make any significant difference. IPEDS lists a 630/730 CR for one, and 640/730 CR for the other Math was 660/770 for one, and 670/770 for the other. I’d expect GPA to be similar as well, although it’s difficult to compare with their reporting differences. Both colleges have a holistic process that includes rejecting a notable number of high stat applicants. GT’s CDS indicates both GPA and ECs carry more weight than scores.
While overall test scores have negligible differences, there are huge differences in specific programs/majors, availibility of majors and ease of switching majors, public vs private, 4-year graduation rate (largely due huge presence of co-term programs at GT), average class size, major distribution, sticker price and related FA, percent in-state, grade inflation/deflation, male/female ratio, and countless more factors. The colleges are so different that I’d be surprised to see a poster on here list both on their desired colleges list (even though I’m sure many do apply to both). One is not obviously better than the other. It’s more GT is better in some things, and Emory is better in others.
@Data10 Both GT and Emory are great schools and totally agree with your assessment.
@VANDEMORY1342 HBCU’s only make up 3% of the Colleges and Universities in the US. I don’t know the numbers but maybe you can see their value to the students they serve by looking at the amounts of African American engineers, dentists, doctors, and PHd’s that flow from their campuses in the US. Long term, HBCUs will shrink in number as our country moves towards a post-racial world. My own thoughts are that we will only see the state funded HBCUs and the top private HBCUs around in 50 years. I believe that this shrinking is one of the consequences of MLK’s dream and not some failure on the part of the HBCUs themselves. I am 3 generations removed from my family share cropping land in Mississippi and another 3 generations further removed from my ancestors being in bondage. HBCU’s have been a part of my own families history of overcoming that. You are trying to make a logical argument and I don’t disagree with everything you are saying, but you will have a hard time understanding the illogical part (the love) that some us have with our HBCU.