Public Universities: A Risk In This Economy?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I have a concern. Let me share it with you.</p>

<p>I attended a very large state university in the West. Large classes. Didn't get to know many professors. Multiple-choice testing. No sense of community. Not a very good education overall, I'm afraid, and I feel lucky to have learned to string two sentences together. But it was something I could afford at the time (20+ years ago). I never really considered anything else. </p>

<p>Now D is considering schools. The economy is melting down. I am hearing talk about enrollment caps and budget cuts. The few students I know at public universities sometimes cannot get the classes they need for their majors, which delays their graduations or forces them to do summer school. Private colleges are now so crazy-expensive that hardly anyone can afford them, putting yet more pressure on public universities to shoulder the load.</p>

<p>I now have frightening visions of my D suffocating in an overcrowded public university and thereby having an experience even less satisfying than the one I had. </p>

<p>What do you think? The price tag for a public university is attractive, I have to admit. I am really worried that this is perhaps the worst time in modern history to choose a public university, but I really don't have any hard facts to inform my hunch.</p>

<p>For those of you with kids in public universities, are your children finding their experience to be less than they had expected for the reasons I mentioned? Are there additional burdens and challenges for students in public universities these days compared to a few years ago?</p>

2

<p>TOTALLY depends on the university.</p>

3

<p>Agree with the above. Each state determines its commitment to its post HS educational institutions and decides how to make any needed budget cuts.</p>

4

<p>So how do you figure out which ones are the ones most likely to have problems? If there is no enrollment cap, is that a bad thing?</p>

5

<p>My kids haven't had that many problems getting the classes they wanted but they're both engineering (CS) and after the first quarter or two the class sizes in their major are actually pretty small with a number of classes being < 30 students. </p>

<p>The more general ed classes that appeal or are required to the masses of students are the ones most crowded (Calc, Bio, Chem, etc.).</p>

<p>If there's no enrollment cap it can be a bad thing depending on the capacity and popularity of the college. I heard that it was becoming difficult to get into classes and therefore taking longer and longer to graduate at SDSU (I think the most 'popular' CalState) and so they put an enrollment cap on to make it more viable.</p>

<p>Rather than make al the cutbacks I'd rather see tuition/fees increase. I don't really like paying more but I'd rather pay a bit more than have them have a worse time of it.</p>

6

<p>It totally depends on the school and the state, how the state funds and sees it's obligation. My nephew had a nightmare at UCLA, hard to get everything from classes to access to books and profs. TAs who spoke little english. He has been here extensively checking out SUNY campuses, which are the same price as a UC even being OOS, and he sees far more resources and satisfied students.</p>

7

<p>I think it also depends on the student. Son is at Berkeley and will be able to graduate in 4 years with a double major. Although he would probably rather stay awhile...too many cool classes he wants to take, according to him.</p>

8

<p>I have 2 in large public universities. One is a freshman so we can't really tell if it will be a problem, but so far so good. One is a junior and has not had a problem getting classes and will graduate on-time. I think it does require flexibility on their part as far as times and course selection. (fortunately my youngest is fine with early morning classes)
I think that some majors may have a tougher time due to the inflexibility of required courses and sequences.
We took SDSU off of my daughter's list due to the number of "impacted majors" so I get what you are saying. We did not want her to go into a situation knowing it would be a struggle.</p>

9

<p>SUNY Binghamton had deferred to Spring 09 a fair amount of kids not admitted for Fall 08. They are all finding out now there will be no housing at all for them. NY is notorious for charging very little for tuition, yet they are also known for not putting much into them either. Spitzer had several inovative plans for SUNY, but out went Spitzer so did his plans, now who knows what will happen.</p>

10

<p>A lot of private schools are going to face huge financial challenges, too---dramatically smaller endowments, declines in annual giving, sharply higher demand for financial aid from both current students and new admits, fewer full-pays, strong resistance to further tuition hikes, stronger competition from lower-cost public competitors, and so on. We're entering a period of rough sledding for higher education, both public and private. On the public side, how badly state budgets are hit will vary widely from state to state; some parts of the country have it much worse than others. California, Arizona, and Florida are facing enormous budget deficits, and a lot of states in the industrial Midwest are also very hard hit. If the auto industry goes under, Michigan and Ohio will be economic and financial basket cases (even more so than they are already). But the structure of state financing also matters. Some publics are funded primarily by discretionary annual or biennial legislative appropriations; they'll likely be hit very hard in states with big budget gaps to fill. Some have dedicated sources of revenue. Others simply don't get much state aid to begin with. I just don't think you can generalize here. Some public universities are facing big trouble, as are some private colleges and universities; others less so. But no one is sitting pretty right now.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
It totally depends on the school and the state, how the state funds and sees it's obligation. My nephew had a nightmare at UCLA, hard to get everything from classes to access to books and profs. TAs who spoke little english.

[/quote]

I think it depends on the major as well since my UCLA D hasn't had that many issues and no issues within her major (School of Engineering - CompSci). She has had issues with some TAs and profs whose English was so bad as to be unintelligible though although from reading other posts on CC this seems to be not that unusual in the math/science areas.</p>

12

<p>I agree with Hanna (and Wis75 and HMom5) -- it depends on the university. D#2 is at a flagship public and I don't expect her to see any significant changes over the next two years. It takes a LONG time to severely constrict university programs, as universities can't simply mothball buildings and furlough professors and students. DW is a (Lady) Professor and her teaching schedule for the 2009-2010 school year is already set.</p>

<p>That said, if a university was already having fiscal troubles ....</p>

13

<p>As bclintock said, private schools are not immune from this. Caveat emptor.</p>

14

<p>I'm a big fan of some of the public liberal arts colleges. I made sure a couple were on S1 and S2 radar screens. There is a website if you google Public Liberal Arts Colleges. For some families they are a nice nurturing, stimulating, economical choice between a large state university and a smaller private college. Quite a few of them come up for discussion on these forums.</p>

15

<p>Son is in a CS program at a big public - he came in with a year of credits and hit a few weeder courses. The number of students that get weeded out can be truly amazing. He's taking sophomore CS courses right now and will be taking a mix of sophomore and junior CS courses in the Spring. No problems signing up for courses and the classes are not that large.</p>

<p>There's one graduate course being offered in the spring that will have one or two students. The course is basically examining two papers in a very important field with lots of research money and perhaps doing some experiments. Our son doesn't have the background but I suggested that he talk to the professor to see if he can get the papers to review.</p>

<p>If you pick an esoteric major, it could potentially get cut. That happened in MA decades ago. It may be attractive to get the General Ed courses out of the way at a CC. Many states provide priority and scholarships for CC transfers.</p>

<p>If it's your in-state school, just watch the news on your state budget and on college spending. Keep an eye out for proposals. If revenue is down sharply, college budget cuts could hit sharply.</p>

<p>There are many downsides to public universities but they do represent the real world in many ways. If you can get through with your degree, you're accomplishing something in a harsher environment with fewer resources than many privates. You may be in old and run-down buildings. The landscaping may be poor. The gym might be 30 years old. The professors might care more about their research than teaching. Or they might not ever show up instead sending a foreign TA to do the entire class.</p>

16

<p>It totally depends on the kid. I have one at Berkeley. He will graduate on time with a double major and has only had a couple of problems getting preferred classes (preferred due to a preference for a teacher or a certain time/day, etc...). Some of his classes have been huge and other small. This has suited him well. The educational experience is like trying to drink from a fire hydrant... intense and the variety is amazing, even if the quality of teaching varies. Some of his professors are quite famous. The extracurricular activities are vast and provide a lot of opportunity for unexpected exploring of the self. He entered college as a kid who never watched a single sport. But he just returned from six days in the Virgin Islands, a free trip provided by Cal Women's basketball so three games could be broadcast over the campus radio station. He was one of two student announcers. But, in terms of advising, he has been mostly on his own, via the campus websites. It's a do-it-yourself kind of atmosphere, and the kid has to be comfortable figuring tricky situations out on his own (including access to health care, mental health, financial concerns, etc...). The kid has been burglarized three times in three different living situations; he knows how to file a police report. There is no one at the school who is looking out for him, though there is help if he can manage to find it. He has learned the hard way (having tried to live in isolation for a time) the value of finding and forming a community. There are many things he has learned out of the class in this "real world" that he will not have to learn post-graduation.</p>

<p>My other kid is a freshman at a small private liberal arts university (less than 4,000 students) in a big city. Her community is basically provided to her, and her new friends number in the dozens after one quarter because the students at her college are very similar to her in values and interests. She called tonight absolutely in love with her academic guidance advisor who she met with today. Together they mapped out all four years of potential classes for her major and minor. She said she went into the meeting, in spite having spent hours on the internet researching her major requirements, feeling lost and uncertain and anxious, and she came out of it with not only a plan but a new friend (the woman was a recent graduate of the university who had lived on her floor in the same dorm... "we had a little bonding moment, Mom...."). She said the advisor made her feel competent and confident by the end of the meeting, and I could hear that in her voice. As she was gushing on the phone this evening over her incredible next quarter schedule, I was sending a million enthusiastic and silent thank yous to the unknown woman who will be her advisor for the next four years. I'm also grateful for the availability of her professors, one in particular who has been helping her with writing every other week during office hours... no TA's for this kid, and no Nobel Laureates either, just close relationships and a ton of respect for her teachers. </p>

<p>The two universities could not be more opposite (in size, politics, student body composition, they are at the extreme edges of the spectrum of colleges). But neither could my two kids be any more different. The price tags between the two for full tuition/room/board/travel home/books differ by about $10,000 (minus the $6,000 merit scholarship the private gave D and it's only $4,000 difference, thank goodness). </p>

<p>There is a place for every type of student. You have to really know your kid well to send them to the extreme edge of the spectrum with any confidence at all. Otherwise, it might be best to find a happy middle, whether public or private. Besides, in this economy, who knows which schools will have it worse.</p>

17

<p>I also attended a large public unversity and found the experience just as you describe. I, too, have been concerned about large schools for my S. He's not a natural "joiner."</p>

<p>What "saved" me was finding a smaller department. By the time I was a junior, my classes were held seminar style, with maybe 20 students max. But at smaller college, where all the departments were smaller, maybe I would have chosen a different major. Of course, 25+ years out and three career changes later, my major is really irrelevant now.</p>

<p>The public LACs are worth a look. None of them are really "well-known" but all seem interesting and focused on undergraduate education.</p>

18

<p>cindysphinx, you asked if those of us with kids in large publics feel that they have not received the education that they envisioned due to the economy. It is still early in the game for us (freshman at a large Virginia public- Virginia Tech) but thus far all is good academically. Like many who have responded he is in a small department (architecture) and tested out of many of the large core classes, so he is very content with the education he has received thus far. He said in that the one big class he has -approx. 300 kids- he still feels very engaged. He leaves early to get to the class in order to get a seat up front and says that the prof is very willing to help. </p>

<p>His only complaint is about eating. :) Funny thing is he doesn't complain about the food; it is the fact that the food is so great in certain dining halls that at times the lines are terrible! </p>

<p>I agree with BCEagle91 (I will give you this nod but not a win tomorrow in the ACC Championship game :)) I think you need to pay attention to your particular state budget and plans for cuts. Just this morning our local paper had an article about where our governor, Tim Kaine, is planning on making more cuts: in K-12 education. Cuts were already made at higher education. He is also looking at trying to help with the need based FA for college kids. </p>

<p>I feel the bottom line is yes, the state of the economy is going to affect every educational institution, the publics or the privates. A lot depends on how the states and schools manage their money and the reductions in funds. So far, and again he is in his "toddler year" so to speak, s is very content with his choice and his experience. You have to send them to the best place that you can afford to send them and they have to work to get the most out of that education no matter where they go.</p>

19

<p>TOTALLY depends on the student.</p>

20

<p>S attended (and graduated in 4 years - yay!) from a mid sized (7-8000) public. D is currently junior at small (2000) LAC. Both have had similar experiences in getting the classes they wanted and both are/were very involved with aspects of their campuses - in other words, able to have the "college experience". As to costs, it was cheaper when D started to attend the LAC than for S the public (in state) due to their great FA package. The LAC costs have risen, but not too out of line. Just 1 1/2 more years to go. :)</p>