<p>Does UC cost THAT little (to have money leftover)? Or does California state provide that much more state aid?</p>
<p>I went to University of Minnesota in 1994-1996 (I completed the first two years somewhere else). I was eligible for full Pell grant, state grant and work-study. We were dirt poor. We lived in apartment with rats and no air-conditioner (summers in Minnesota can get pretty hot and humid). So I qualified for everything that was need-based. Yet, I still did not have enough to pay tuition just from grants. I had to cover extra tuition and books (and living expenses) out of pocket. My work-study was not enough to cover everything, so I actually had a second weekend job. That was more than 15 years ago, when tuition at UofM was actually affordable. I cannot believe (but I don’t doubt what you say) that California kids have any money leftover from their aid. No wonder state of California is bankrupt.</p>
But that’s just it. The two students have never been equal for the first eighteen years of their life. Did the lower income student have access to top private schools with highly paid teachers? Did they have access to tutors if they needed them? How many of the students from the six figure incomes do you think are working while going to school? How many are paying their share (and not their parents)? </p>
<p>These kids were never equal yet now that they are in college you want to even the financial playing field? I’m sorry but I disagree. I believe these schools are as fair as they can be. The parents are responsible for a portion of the cost or not based on income. All students have the same obligation, although the lower income are probably the only ones working or paying for their share.</p>
<p>dungareedoll, the low-income kids that are getting financial aid in the form of grants are typically really fine students who have excelled in spite of their circumstances. Their circumstances might include a crappy home, a rough neighborhood, a mediocre school system, an out-of-work parent, or a single mother trying to keep her family above water and her child in school. Some of these low-income kids come to school hungry many mornings. Some are the children of immigrants and refugees. Many colleges use their private [!!] funds to attract these kids to their campus. They seem to think that these high-achieving, low-income students can enrich their college community [one thats often overwhelmingly white and middle-class]. As a white, middle-class father, I think its a very good thing that aid is available for these students. Further, I dont think you really care much about these students and their stories [the blah blah blah you refer to]. Youre right: lifes not fair. But, please, go easy on the complaints that middle income families are being punished when exceptional, low-income students are finally given a break.</p>
<p>lerkin, when I went to school in 1998 I saw kids at my CC receiving aid buy cars with what they had leftover. I felt like such a sucker living in my moms basement making $28k a year an paying everything myself. Working 40 hours and taking 16 units a quarter. I had a horrible experience at CC and State universities. I will admit that in CA the aid for low income covered everything and some. But now with rising tuition they complain that it isn’t covering enough and they are having to take out loans.</p>
<p>Now me and wife both have degrees, our child 1.5 years from now will be heading off to college. CA looks very expensive beyond car/mass transit commuting to a regional campus. But then you’d have to add 2-3 hours of travel per day, car etc. We’re comfortable not very much saved. But most likely our child will be attending Alabama. We have had the finance discussion many times. CA does not give merit based aid in any form. It’s actually very sad. Oregon actually saw this massive increase in CA resident apply the last couple years. But yes that $80k family income is a fantastic example. They do offer some aid for the $100k-$150k households, but you’re still looking at a price tag in the $12-20k range. Tuition has increase exponentially, but what is really out of hand is the cost of housing, dorming, food etc. the average Cal COA is around $28k, which is very high for me. Especially coming from state at the time that was less than $2k a semester tuition only.</p>
<p>This is so redundant. I have NEVER said that low income kids shouldn’t get an elite education. What I said is that they should come out with a loan like everybody else.</p>
<p>I understand perfectly, and perhaps more than you will ever realize, the kinds of limitations low income kids have to deal with growing up. However, thats why they get the enormous 'free ride". As for the middle to upper income kids not working summers, or having private school educations and better teachers etc thats just a ridiculous over statement. I guarantee the majority do not have all those comforts. What they may have is stability. I would say as a whole they aren’t living in crime infested neighborhoods, and they have breakfast each morning. People seem to think that just becuase someone is making 200k their lives are perfect. No way. If you think that these households aren’t dealing with alcholism, rough families situations, domestic abuse, and money problems, well then we aren’t being realistic. So those issues occur across the board. Having more money doesn’t exclude you from those issues. But once again i do agree that life may be more difficult for the low income kids, so they get the free education. Great! But at the end of the 4 years we don’t owe them anything anymore. Society has made right the terrible situation they encountered for 18 years by providing a $250K education. I should think thats more than decent. So why does the kid who appears to be so fortunate have to come out with 20K in loans.? Oh thats right because his parents worked their butts off for 20 years, managed their money well, stayed marriage, paid their taxes (and thereby making their contribution to society), were lucky to remain employeed and raised a good kid with the scholarly potential to be accepted to HYPS. So now what do you get for doing things right, hustling, making good choices? Your kid get burdened with 20k of debt. And don’t even think for a second that just because someone is making 200k that they have 60k sitting around. Everyone lives within their means, so why shouldn’t the 200k family? </p>
<p>BTW I know that many low income families are working hard, staying married, trying to manage their money well etc etc. I am not saying that they are in that situation because they did everything wrong. But everyone has to start somewhere. As a whole most of us, either now or generations before, came from nothing and worked our way up the social ladder. So to get this great opportunity of an elite education at HYPS is amazing and certainly well deserved but at the end you need to pay something just like everyone else!!!</p>
<p>…if they have high enough stats and the great good luck to be accepted to one of the very few schools that will cover all their expenses. Otherwise, the education generally isn’t so free.</p>
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<p>Hardly the only four schools in the country where a good kid with scholarly potential can flourish. Any kid who is lucky enough to get into HYPS can find enough merit money elsewhere and can finish school without any loans. If the young man or woman thinks that going to one of those four super tippy-top schools is worth taking out $20k in loans, then that’s their own decision, and not an unreasonable one.</p>
<p>One of my absolute favorite CC stories is about a young woman who was accepted to Yale 'bout 6-7 years back, before the new generous aid policies started up. The parents were the sort of unimpeachable citizens mentioned above, who unfortunately for FA purposes owned a ranch/farm. The EFC was going to be a killer. The kiddo was aiming at med school, and she didn’t much like the idea of taking out debt for both undergrad and med school. So she asked if her parents would take the money they were planning on using for undergrad, and let her use it for med school. She took a big scholarship that probably paid for pizza and shampoo and went to Rhodes College. Won a Goldwater (the big science award for undergrads) while she was there. She’s now in med school…at Yale. She’ll finish debt-free.</p>
<p>And I’ve got a friend with a kid who took the big scholarship at U of Chicago for undergrad over acceptances at every single other tippy-top school you can imagine. Saved money, which then got used to fund med school…at Stanford. Zero debt. The family is in that $200k annual family income range in an expensive metro area, so they would have been full-pay at those single initial schools.</p>
<p>I’m only talking about the 4 schools (HYPS) that have this rule that 60k and under income gets a free ride. Of course there’s always options for the 200k kid to go to another school and be debt free but then why should he? He has worked very hard to be accepted to HYPS too. But now he has to settle for something other than one of these four dream schools in order to be debt free? Unlike the 60k kid who can go because he had a tough upbringing. Wow, thats seems so unfair.</p>
<p>My son has talked of kids getting extra $ beyond tuition to live on as well. I think that is only OK if they are independent students, making progress toward a degree that will land them a job and not on welfare. That is, they have to really need the $, and have no future if they don’t get it. They better not be living with mom or dad. I think some of this $ may come through unemployent and not actually be FA (here in NJ)</p>
<p>Also, I have seen the financial aid students in the bookstore, buying whatever they want with their financial aid (I asked the cashiers)…overpriced sweatshirts, fancy wheeled backpacks, $20 flash drives ($5 somewhere else). They just spend it to spend it. Then, you see them selling the textbooks for CASH. The same books FA paid for!</p>
<p>TEXTBOOK RENTAL is what needs to happen in FA. Students should get a stipend covering the rental of the books (and they get $0 if they don’t really get the book, but just borrow or share it). If they wish to own it they should fork over the extra $. </p>
<p>By the way, kids CAN work while in school. Maybe not a lot if they are in a rigorous program, but my son has managed to work 25-40 hours/week his entire college career (jr). I admit it’s not a hard major like pre-med or engineering. He got a 3.2 last semester, but he could spend more time studying that he does…a lot more! Studying is not his thing, so he does as little as he can get away with. I think a good student could study the same amount and do better (by being more focused and concerned). I think most kids could handle 20 hours a week. The athletes spend a considerable amount of time and many manage good grades, so it’s not to much to ask of a student, and full time in the summer (or 2 part-time, whatever it takes). There are kids on some teams that are ALSO in work study.</p>
<p>Even in HYPS there is time for other things besides studying. I assume work-study is in most FA packages for those under certain incomes. It is a Federal program right? When S2 got an extra grant (I think due to football I noticed his “federal work study” on his financial aid offer got changed to “college employment program.” We are not “low income” and I was surprised he got any work-study, but I guess the additional grant dropped us out of the federal work program.</p>
<p>First, HYPS use their PRIVATE funds to bring these gifted, low-income kids to their campuses. The schools are spending their own funds. Nothing unfair about that. Second, and most importantly, without these grants, college for the vast majority of these low-income kids would be impossible. There’s no way they could ever go to college. You, on the other hand, dungareedoll, have an income and access to credit. You’re lucky as hell.</p>
How many of those hours are on weekends? It’s impossible during the week assuming full time (approx 5 classes). You also need a very favorable schedule as usually there is only a two hour break between classes so it’s hard to find a block of consecutive hours to work. My son struggles to get 10 hours a week in. Each of his classes has a discussion period that meets once a week outside the class time and he has two labs which are 4 hour blocks.</p>
<p>I agree with others that working during school is possible and desirable. But let’s all please remember that each student is an individual, and not every student is equally suited for this. The primary purpose of being a student is to … be a student(!!). kdog - If your son is struggling to balance his academics and work at 10 hours/week, I don’t think it makes sense to consider working any more. Once he’s confident that the academics are secure, he can work more - not until then.</p>
<p>MisterK, when I say he struggles to work 10 hours I mean he can’t fit it into his schedule due to conflicts with classes, not that his grades are affected. He just can’t find a block of consecutive hours most days. ;)</p>
<p>While I don’t completely agree with every aspect of their financial aid policy, as a private institution they have every right to set it anyway they want, but only if they choose not accept federal money. Indirectly they do (through Pell grant), so in this way they open themselves up for criticism. So, it is not just the private money they are using, they are using also public money to claim that they meet full need.</p>
<p>And also in majority of cases luck has nothing to do with somebody’s access to credit or high income. For the most part, it is hard work, dedication and smart choices that get you to that place in life.</p>
<h1>Maybe not a lot if they are in a rigorous program, but my son has managed to work 25-40 hours/week his entire college career (jr).</h1>
<p>C’mon, 40 hours a week while going to school full time?</p>
<p>==============================</p>
<p>Perhaps what NJ means is that during a 52 week year, there are many weeks that her son works 40 hours (like summers/breaks) and there are other weeks (school weeks) that he works 25 hours.</p>
<p>Kdog…If your son struggles to find 10 hours per week to work, then that means he’s excluded Friday nights and the entire weekend. That’s a choice. </p>
<p>Both of my kids worked M-F for their school (paid tutors). They are STEM majors, so demanding schedules. The only semester that one of them didn’t work much was the semester that S2 took Orgo II (along with his eng’g classes) because he was determined to get all A’s because he’s pre-med. That semester, (with our subsidy) he only worked 4 hours each late Friday afternoon. If money were an issue to our family, he would have gotten an outside job and worked 10+ hours over the weekend.</p>
<p>If your son only has a work-study job on campus, that may be the problem. If he crossed the streets of his campus, he might be able to find an off-campus job on weekends for a few hours. I don’t buy the idea that kids spend their entire weekends studying. Most kids never study on a Friday night…so there’s 5 hours right there.</p>
<p>Just want to note that HYPS promise no PARENT contribution for incomes <$60k. They DO still expect a student contribution for summer work and work during the school year. For example: Harvard expects $1200-1500 student contribution and $2500 in work during the school year. It is not a “full ride” and the student has some skin in the game. I would suspect a number of <$60k students do take loans to cover some of these contributions.</p>
and went to Rhodes College. Won a Goldwater (the big science award for undergrads) while she was there. She’s now in med school…at Yale. 
She’ll finish debt-free.</p>
I noticed his “federal work study” on his financial aid offer got changed to “college employment program.” We are not “low income” and I was surprised he got any work-study, but I guess the additional grant dropped us out of the federal work program.</p>