Pure math major looking to go to grad school..suggestions for matches?

College Search & Selection
21

@vaporeonkid, I think you have a reasonably good chance of getting an ED acceptance from Brown, Williams, Haverford or any other school that rises to the top of your list. There is certainly nothing in your profile that would argue against a positive outcome, but there’s no guarantee. Assuming you are a citizen of your country of birth, I believe you will be will be considered as part of that under-represented pool. The experience of your family’s relocation might feature positively in your profile if you present it as such.

I don’t know of any reliable source for statistics on international admissions, except the colleges themselves, and even then, the figures are often muddled by how they define internationals. The international high school that my son attended also did very well in admissions to selective mid-sized privates and LACs. Many of the students, however, had the advantage of being classified as domestic applicants because they were American expats, green card holders, or holders of dual citizenship, rather than the “nonresident aliens” listed in CDS statistics.

When identifying likelies, you will be faced with trade-offs, so it’s better to consider in advance which features are most important to you and which you’re willing to let go of – factors like the size of the school, its environment, its geographic location, its pervasive culture, its level of academic rigor. When you decide which are non-negotiable, you’ll be able to identify less selectives accordingly. Visiting will help a lot.

My son did his graduate degree at Cornell. He found the intellectual energy of both the students and the faculty compelling and will continue to benefit from the global name recognition. Southeast Asians – notably Indonesians – have a significant presence at Cornell. For my son, Cornell’s profoundly beautiful natural surroundings were a significant plus. But despite Cornell’s strengths he is glad that he chose Williams for his undergraduate education.

It’s interesting to watch the trend toward LAC recruitment at international schools. Many LACS experienced substantial increases in international applications this year (see press releases from Bates, Smith, Whitman, Williams, Grinnell, Middlebury, Union) maybe due to expanded recruitment or better information through initiatives like EducationUSA.

How this will play out is unknown at this point. Will LACs increase the number of internationals that they offer spaces to or will the upward trend in applications result in a downward trend in international acceptance rates? One way or another there will be impact.

22

@momprof9904 Yeah, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by past records of students from my school — people with identical stats to mine have ended up at wonderful places, so I must say I’m very lucky to be in this position. Could you clarify what you mean by ‘not sure how the first gen angle will play out since you’re full pay’? I thought both were (individually, at least) good things. What do you mean by an ‘angle with moving countries’? I thought this would disadvantage me if anything, since I had to basically start fresh with ECs, building relationships with teachers + the whole added stress of just…moving? I know I had a difficult time adjusting to the social scene here (which is very different from my previous country).

@momrath Yeah, I do want to be careful about the difference in acceptances for domestic expats vs nonresident aliens. From official published data, less than 10% of the school population is American by citizenship (we’re much more a ‘British’ school), so I would hope this doesn’t significantly affect anything. I know in my graduating class there are at most 25-30 Americans, from which less than 10 are interested in the schools I’m looking at (most are looking at HYPS for early rounds; typical for overachieving students, I suppose).

Interesting you mention Southeast Asians having a significant presence at Cornell. Would this count positively or negatively towards my candidacy there? I know they do accept more South Asians (probably the most common demographic applying to top schools in my graduating class by far — about 85% of qualified applicants I would say?) than other schools (aside from also accepting more applicants in general.

I know a lot of LACs have been recruiting at my current school for 10+ years (don’t ask me how — it’s super cool in that respect!) and some do come on campus to interview specifically to recruit for diversity, so I might say this played a part in recruiting? I know when Amherst visited in the beginning of the year, only ~10 kids (seniors+juniors) came, while a Yale visit (for juniors only) a few weeks back had >40 students attend — so that’s really the popular opinion at my school. The college counselors have been pushing towards LACs a lot recently too, and all my friends have been complaining about it — they apparently keep on pushing the idea of LACs to families that aren’t too keen on the name recognition in Asia. I’m not complaining though, I love the environment + academics!

I think for likelies, my non-negotiables are:

  • good math department offering classes up to upper undergrad/grad level at least once a year (particularly in algebra)
  • location: East Coast is a must, I’d say NE to be safe but Mid-Atlantic is alright (I’m going to say NC/VA is the most ‘South’ I’d be willing to venture out? Primarily because of relatives’ proximity and personal preference.
  • No core curriculum: the more flexible the curriculum, the better. Open curriculum isn’t a must but less distribution requirements would be nice (just out of personal preference and me wanting to both do depth+breadth in niche fields like art/math that I probably won’t be able to with stringent distribution requirements).

Size (anything where I don’t have to be in 100+ lecture halls every single semester up to senior year is fine), culture (intellectual, non-cutthroat), and location type (Suburban or semi-urban) are preferred but okay if not.

I’ll probably refine this list of attributes once I start visiting over the summer, but I largely am settling on these criteria.

23

VaporeonKid, Michigan and Chicago are two indispensable programs for anybody serious about undergraduate mathematics. I think you should take a close look at those two.

Some good targets/safeties to consider:

New York University
University of Maryland-College Park
University of Wisconsin-Madison

24

@vaporeonKid, Your family’s relocation may have disadvantaged you for the short term, but it might also provide an idea of a good personal essay.

I don’t know your circumstances, but students at my son’s international school in Jakarta were treated warmly by Cornell, both Indonesians and expats living in Indonesia. Cornell is a great school and Ithaca a great college town, but it’s a place you need to visit to see how you feel about the rural atmosphere.

I think there are several reasons that LACs are recruiting more internationally. Diversity of background and life experience is one, though non-resident aliens’ ethnicities are not part of the official CDS statistics. Another is a desire to appear “globally aware” and accepting of diverse cultures. Colleges with money budget quite a lot of aid money to lure high achieving kids from unusual backgrounds. In effect, full pay internationals balance out those from economically challenged families. Colleges need both.

It sounds like your schools’ counselors have a good track record in placing their students at top schools. My point is that international admissions at LACs is in flux, so be conservative on your sure bets.

It’s good to articulate your thoughts about what you want most. I hope you can keep an open mind on location as you’d increase your chances by looking outside the geographic area most favored by internationals – i.e., urban and suburban, northeast and mid-Atlantic. If eliminate the many academically rigorous schools in the midwest or south (as well as less selective women’s colleges that are in the northeast) then you may have to move a notch down in academic excellence and/or go bigger or more impersonal than you’d prefer…

As I said it’s a tradeoff, and you have to follow your inclinations, but if you could expand your visit list somewhat you may be pleasantly surprised.

Distribution requirements are generally not too constricting. (Core curriculums are a different situation.) With interests in math and art you’ve already covered two out of three categories, and you’ll easily find something in the social sciences that interests you.

If you devote time and energy to art and design, consider submitting an art portfolio even if you don’t intend to major in art. This would give depth to your presentation and open up another dimension of your profile at schools that have strong studio art cultures like Brown, Williams and Haverford.

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@Alexandre Thanks! I’ve been looking into NYU — from what I understand Courant is a good grad program; is the undergrad program of a similar caliber?

@momrath That’s interesting — my school is also very warmly treated by Cornell (actually our second most popular college destination after NYU — imagine that!). I think I’d be willing to compromise on location a tiny bit; perhaps somewhere like UNC-CH, UVA, or Emory in terms of location? Michigan has been mentioned a couple of times on here and I’ve heard good things about it.

I agree with being conservative, so I’m definitely looking for some LACs that are easier to get into. Any suggestions in particular? I know Hamilton has been suggested before, but its relative isolation is a bit unsettling for me — although I might still apply. I’m considering Barnard (probably not very conservative in terms of admissions, though) and Lafayette.

We unfortunately won’t be visiting colleges for that long as I’ll be doing other things over the summer (math camp, visiting family, Disney) leaving maybe a week (which I’ve filled up partly with interviews at places that offer it + visiting any schools I’m on the fence about applying in). Anywhere in particular you think might be good to see (at least) to give myself a better idea of what I like? (Preferably driving distance from NYC because of time constraints.)

26

Yale, Brown, Penn and Vassar are all within a few Amtrak stops of NYC (figure around 2 hrs. or less.) Wesleyan and Princeton are pretty drivable, too.

27

How advanced will you be in math at high school graduation?

If you will be very advanced in math (e.g. have completed multivariable calculus, linear algebra, etc. while in high school), then, when looking at LACs, you may want to make sure that their upper level math offerings are sufficient and include graduate level course work (even if not necessarily labeled as such). Harvey Mudd would be an example, though it is a reach and in California. Barnard’s very convenient cross registration with Columbia should give you access to many advanced math courses. Lafayette may not have much in the way of electives beyond the basics abstract algebra, real analysis, complex analysis, number theory, and geometry/topology (and no apparent graduate level courses or logic and set theory courses).

Note that non-LACs should also be checked carefully in this respect, since some that have good reputations generally in technical fields may not be as strong in pure math (since their focus may be somewhere else, like engineering).

28

Williams makes an interesting potential ED choice for you. I regard this school as being one of the few rural colleges that refuse to apologize for their, by conventional standards, isolated locations. This represents a plus in my opinion. However, in terms of setting, Williams does not seem to match your stated preferences. That noted, you can reach Albany in an hour from Williamstown, so maybe Williams really isn’t that isolated.

29

@vaporeonkid, it’s difficult to give you visit suggestions without knowing which stops you’ve already scheduled and how many days you’ve allotted. If your time is limited, it’s good to group schools geographically, then look for similar and overlapping characteristics in other schools that you’re not able to visit.

Hamilton was one of my son’s favorites. It’s even more isolated than Williams. Clinton, the nearest town is charming, but it’s a hike from campus. Strong academics and an arts alter ego which might appeal. The negative is that it enrolls very few internationals: In 2017/18, 31 internationals out of 480, about 6.5%.

Even worse, according to this article in the college newpaper, this year Hamilton received 6238 applications in total and 19% (1185) of those were from international students. I don’t know how many internationals they admitted (or if that 1185 only includes nonresident aliens) but these numbers are crazy!
https://spec.hamilton.edu/admission-office-sees-record-number-of-applications-from-students-for-class-of-2022-9119ebb16111

I don’t know too much about Lafayette (8% international enrollment) but if you are in the area consider visiting Dickinson (16% international enrollment).

Other less selective northeast LACs with good international enrollment rates (12%) would be Colby and Skidmore.

I wouldn’t put Barnard on the “easier to get into” list, but it is demonstrably international friendly.

Michigan is a terrific school with all of the strengths and weaknesses that come with mega-big universities. I’m an alumna and I can tell you that its international name recognition (notably in Asia) is powerful, much better than Williams’. If you can visit Ann Arbor, you’ll get an idea of how you like the concept of a big public in a vibrant college town.

30

Probably for good reason. It seems that in a recent year Hamilton ranked third in the U.S. (after Caltech and Harvey Mudd) by percentage of math majors: https://www.hamilton.edu/news/story/beyond-the-numbers-hamilton-s-exemplary-math-department. With respect to location, while central New York can appear beautifully rural, Hamilton’s shuttle will get you to nearby suburban-type places:
https://www.hamilton.edu/campuslife/transportation/the-jitney

31

As I’ve seen several posters mention Barnard – I think it’s important to note that a math major at Barnard would end up taking most of her coursework at Columbia. In fact, checking the Barnard math department page for listings of courses required and recommended for the major, I saw only two Barnard-specific courses (courses labeled as “BC”)-- of the dozens of other courses listed, all of the others had designations indicating that they were university-wide courses (designated “UN”), many of them actually graduate level sources (noted with “GU”). Some of the “UN” courses might actually be taught by Barnard profs in Barnard classrooms, but they would be interchangeable with courses taught on the Columbia campus.

That might be a positive or a negative depending on the student’s preferences – but the OP wrote that she was looking for “a suburban location, great math department, an undergraduate focus, and a quirky/nerdy student body.” Barnard doesn’t have a “great math department” of its own – it has a great partnership going with a leading research university. I don’t know how much of the “undergraduate focus” of Barnard might be diluted for a student who ends up doing most the coursework for her major across the street.

Perhaps when she visits she’ll get a better sense of fit — given that the math department at Barnard is quite small, she might also find it worthwhile to talk with a faculty member within the department to get a better sense of what she might experience as a Barnard math major.

32

Colby is not less selective than Hamilton. Colby accepts approx 17 percent and Hamilton 27 percent of very similar high quality students.

33

Colby overall may be comparable to Hamilton in admissions, particularly in the last year or two. However, this analysis from 2015 places Hamilton 37th nationally and Colby 70th when considered by the standardized scoring levels of attending students: https://amp.businessinsider.com/the-610-smartest-colleges-in-america-2015-9. By current standardized scoring information (from CDS data), Hamilton places 3rd if compared among all 10 NESCAC LACs.

34

@privatebanker, Hamilton’s overall admit rate (which I believe includes ED) for the class of 2022 was 20.8%, Colby’s RD rate was even lower than your figure, at 13%! So yes, for US students, Colby is more selective than Hamilton.

Admit rates for international students, however, don’t necessarily align with US rates. Data on international admissions is sparse and incomplete so we have to make educated guesses based on the information that we know. It’s mostly speculation at this point.

The reason that I think Colby might be an easier admit for internationals than Hamilton is that according to its 2015-2016 CDS, Colby enrolled 61 non-resident aliens out of 508 total freshmen, or 12% the class. (I couldn’t find more recent CDSs on Colby.) I don’t know how many internationals applied or how many were admitted, but to me, 12% is a comparatively friendly number.

By comparison for 2017-2018 Hamilton only enrolled 31 non-resident aliens out of a class of 480, 6.5%. For class of 2022 Hamilton received 1185 applications from international students. We don’t know how many of these were admitted, but let’s say a maximum of 120. That would mean an international admit rate of 10%.

The OP is interested in LACs in the northeast and mid-Atlantic and wants to fine tune her visit list. To my way of thinking, targetting schools that enroll a minimum 10% internationals is a reasonable starting place, though, of course, other variables enter into the equation.

Many, many LACs received an avalanche of international applications this year. It will be interesting to see if the needle moves on the number that end up enrolling, though I can’t see these small colleges increasing their international percentages by more than 1 to 2 points.

35

Selectivity pertains to more than acceptance rate of course. In my year-old copy of U.S. News, for example, Williams received a “selectivity rank” of 4, Swarthmore of 5, Hamilton of 11, Wesleyan of 19 and Colby of 23, even though the respective acceptance rates did not fall exactly in that order.

Regarding international acceptance rates specifically, excepting in cases in which explicit data can be provided, I don’t think reliable inferences can be extrapolated to full-pay internationals from the international applicant cohort in general.

36

I think all three are great and Colby Hamilton are academic peers at the top end of the small school food chain

37

Socio-economic diversity is another added ingredient. According to my year-old copy of Washington Monthly magazine, 19% of Williams’ student body is composed of Pell grant recipients, followed by 18% at Wesleyan, 16% at Colby and 15% each at Swarthmore and Hamilton.

38

Yes, a striving for socioeconomic diversity can make a school appear less selective than would be revealed by a deeper look.