<p>Does implementing an URM policy create a better environment for the colleges that choose to weigh an individual's minority status as a deciding factor for admissions?</p>
<p>I think a URM is exactly that, a person from a background usually under represented in a given college's history. Could it be bad to have very different viewpoints in a class of students discussing certain public policy? On the contrary, I think the policy helps the culture of the campus.</p>
<p>Just because someone is black doesn't mean they're going to have a different viewpoint on something than a white college student. I think economic conditions have a far larger diversity role than race, but that's just my opinion. How much does a wealthy kid of an african-american family who wears Abercrombie & Fitch benefit diversity more than the wealthy kid of a white family who wears A&F?</p>
<p>I agree with you to an extent. However, I think you're making a mistake when you say that racial barriers don't extend throughout every economic bracket. If you consider a black kid wearing Abercrombie and Fitch with millionaire parents, the kid could very possibly be the only African-American in that school. That offers a viewpoint that is often even more rare than an African American growing up in a poor urban area. Granted, not everyone can bring a positive or different personality to campus, regardless of skin color.</p>
<p>AY8888 wrote: "Does implementing an URM policy create a better environment for the colleges that choose to weigh an individual's minority status as a deciding factor for admissions?"</p>
<p>I would counter with a question of my own: does a college admissions committee help the mission of a school by bringing in diversity? </p>
<p>Areas such as: gender, age, geographic representation, intended area of study (especially in under represented groups such as male nursing students), athleticism, international status, celebrity, superior arts and music students, superior scientists, community activists, legacy status, rural students, inner city students, etc?</p>
<p>To the degree you agree with this, then YES bringing in students because of their ethnic background will generally enhance a university's mission to provide the best educational experience for its students.</p>
<p>Again, I posit that one absolutely CAN NOT decry schools like HYPS for admitting students based upon non-metric characteristics (like I've outlined above) and then in the same breath BEG to go to these "top tier" schools since the diverse student body ensures their "top tier" status. Can't have your cake and eat it too.</p>
<p>I'll even add this to your original question: "Is ethnic diversity necessary for a college to attract students?" I posit that the "top" schools enjoy a big part of their so-called reputation in LARGE MEASURE due to their ability to craft a diverse student body. </p>
<p>Would Harvard be Harvard if it were 70% WASP, 28% Jewish and 2% others? In this day and age, if that was its composition, would it enjoy even the slightest of its reputation and pinache? Of course not.</p>
<p>Yes. And, The Supreme Court agrees. That is why there are students from different states, regions, & countries, athletes, singers, sexual orientations, gender (usually), et al.</p>
<p>Very different than British & German schools, for instance, in some ways--no holistic admissions process.</p>
<p>
[quote]
since the diverse student body ensures their "top tier" status. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Let's just say that it's not the diverse student body that makes Harvard America's "dream university" or ensures its great attraction for many students.</p>
<p>why would you "just say" that its not the reason for many students?</p>
<p>Ever heard of a little something called prestige? Plus: gigantic endowments, huge resources, famous professors, good job placement and internship possibilities, a community of intellectually curious students, connections and networking with influential people? Those factors are what make HYP stand out in the top tier.. not racial diversity. Not to the majority of applicants, at least (even if a few may not admit it)</p>
<p>Somewhat related: a very close friend of mine told me a story earlier this year while we were freaking out about colleges. One of her friends, an Asian, was accepted into the University of Delaware two years before. She had been kind of surprised at the acceptance (it was a reach school for her).</p>
<p>Anyways, so she attended and absolutely hated it. Apparently, she was one of only a couple of Asians in her almost-entirely white class (she believes that she was accepted only because she was a URM for them). She was very uncomfortable; she felt like some sort of zoo animal in the beginning, especially. She wasn't bullied or anything like that -- just a lot of surprised stares and "Wow, you're Asian!" statements.</p>
<p>She transferred out and is much happier now. Although I think the feeling of being slightly ostracized and separated from her peers due to race/ethnicity played a large part, I think another huge factor was the fact that, in general, most of the kids had come from similar backgrounds that she couldn't relate to.</p>
<p>Right, anyways: I personally believe that socioeconomic backgrounds play a much bigger part in "diversity" than does race. However, I think that racial diversity does play a part in making a university more approachable for people.</p>
<p>... y'know, I feel like I didn't answer the question. Oops. XD</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ever heard of a little something called prestige? Plus: gigantic endowments, huge resources, famous professors, good job placement and internship possibilities, a community of intellectually curious students, connections and networking with influential people?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>These are not the reasons that Harvard a top tier univerisity. What makes Harvard and its ilk top tier universities are its eminence as a national and international leader in intellectual, political, cultural, and artistic exchange. Harvard and its peers state that their most valuable intellectual assets are their students who come from many different places and backgrounds and have a striking variety of talents, ambitions, and convictions, all possess a passion for learning. This is not always measured by the person with the highest grades and SAT scores.</p>
<p>If you did not have the opportunity to do so, I would recommend that you read the Overachievers, by Robbins</p>
<p>Although the first paragraph starts out a little over the top, woven in between the student stories is some good sound facts and advice (which is definitely why the book is worth a read for parents and kids going through the admissions cycle).</p>
<p>From p. 202</p>
<p>
[quote]
Harvard's dean of admission and financial aid, Bill Fitzsommons told me that applicants have to do some unusal things to distinguish themselves is a "misconception". "in brad terms, there are 3 ways to get into Harvard," he said. </p>
<p>Each year out of 23,000 applicants and 2,100 admits, </p>
<p>about 200 to 300 students get in because "they are among the most exciting potential scholars of the coming generation." </p>
<p>The second category consists of "people who do something extraordinarily well.' 200 to 300 excelling in dance, drama, or athletics, whose achievements "are almost surrogates for energy, drive and commitment." </p>
<p>The third way to get into Harvard is the most common: students who have "plain old accomplishments on a day-to day basis. it is not about gimmicks, but about substance."</p>
<p>Harvard tells students there are hundreds of excellent colleges choices, and while Harvard may be one of them, other schools might be a better match.<br>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>One of the main reasons that a kid with perfect scores would be rejected or waitlisted is because when reviewing their applications, the admissions committee may reach concensus that this student would be better suited somewhere else.</p>
<p>It is because Harvard is a top tier university, it can and does attract $$, huge resources, professors, good job placement and internship possibilities, a community of intellectually curious students, connections and networking with influential people to further is mission as T26E4 stated to provide the best educational experience for its students.</p>
<p>"Ever heard of a little something called prestige? Plus: gigantic endowments, huge resources, famous professors, good job placement and internship possibilities, a community of intellectually curious students, connections and networking with influential people? Those factors are what make HYP stand out in the top tier.. not racial diversity. Not to the majority of applicants, at least (even if a few may not admit it)"</p>
<p>I agree my earlier post is an oversimplification: that diverse students = the sole reason for HYPS and others' renown. However, I know that the incredible student body is a monstrously huge factor in overall education. I don't take for granted one second how my life was affected by the breadth of my close friends and acquaintances at the HYP college I attended.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How much does a wealthy kid of an african-american family who wears Abercrombie & Fitch benefit diversity more than the wealthy kid of a white family who wears A&F?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Our family while not wealthy IMO, by some definitions would by income statiscally be in the upper quintile. My children who attended prep schools and as a result like AF, Northface, UGGS, etc, as that is the attire of the dominant culture. Nice looking too. LOL! However, I've always ushered an admonition to my kids, "be not deceived, you are amongst the Joneses, but you are not the Joneses". No real class envy from my kids that I can discern but below illustrates a short answer in one of my S essays that illustrate the differences of color. this is just one of many anectdotes I could share. The way my children see the world may be one way, but on occasion it is tempered by other realities.</p>
<p>his short answer:</p>
<p>At different times in my life, I have had to deal with the two sides of the male
stereotype for African-Americans. Many societies display African-Amerian males
as bellicose, undereducated people. So, as a vivacious and persistent
African-American male, I made one of my goals to defy this stereotype. However,
upon making that stereotype personally inapplicable, I faced the stereotype of
being "less black" by wanting to speak and act intelligently. From these
negative experiences, I have learned that no matter the number of prejudices I
overcome, there will always be another obstacle and I must learn to overcome
that too.<br>
His white peers would hardly ever have to deal with this.</p>
<p>While that is true, and is definitely disappointing because it discourages african american males in particular from applying themselves in school, I think across the board there's an increase in anti-intellectualism in US youth. It's a disturbing trend, and so I imagine that minority males in particular get hit hard doubly by "being white" and "being nerdy" at the same time. </p>
<p>However, while I'll admit that race does add a little to diversity, economic backgrounds and a student pool spanning the world does a lot more than race. For example: a black student from Kenya would be FAR more beneficial to diversity than a black student from Virginia. Diversity is about differences in experience. So yes, I think there's very little diversity gained from race, unless you mean at the surface level where you just glance around campus.</p>
<p>"For example: a black student from Kenya would be FAR more beneficial to diversity than a black student from Virginia. Diversity is about differences in experience."</p>
<p>What? This has to be one of the most ignorant simplistic statements I have ever read. So if the Kenyan (assuming he or she is "black" wow maybe even AFRICAN) is a rich spoiled brat like many kids at Harvard that would be "FAR more beneficial" than an African American kid from a working class neighborhood in Virginia, whose parents may not have been to college? What an completely ignorant statement. This issue is far more complex. And I am sorry folks but Affirmative Action is dead for all intents and purposes. But DIVERSITY is a selling point because in the REAL WORLD we deal with a DIVERSITY of people. Diversity is far far beyond an issue of race.</p>
<p>Haha, wow. I wonder how much time you spent digging through the CC archives for this, but I'll bite:</p>
<p>It's not ignorant or simplistic at all. Do you understand the huge cultural divide between Kenya and the US? Also, do you realize that I clarified with "black student" to illustrate that while race may be the same, geographic location means much more? The Kenyan culture is vastly different from any aspect of American culture. You're talking different laws, justice system, and the increasing prevalence of tribal warfare. There are a myriad of ways this person adds to diversity, providing crucial insight from the point of view of a foreigner. </p>
<p>Frankly, the upper strata of Kenya may be well off by their country's standards, but there are different social activities, ways to dress, etc etc. There are plenty of African-Americans from all levels of wealth in the college system, how many Kenyans/Serbians/Danes are there? How much would they add in perspective? Virginia is microscopically different from Massachusetts when you compare it to the difference between Kenya and the US.</p>
<p>And to top it all off, I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. You try to label me as ignorant and moronic, but you end with the same point I was trying to make. Which is that race doesn't affect diversity as much as cultural and economic backgrounds. Here:</p>
<p>"I think there's very little diversity gained from race, unless you mean at the surface level where you just glance around campus." - Me</p>
<p>"Diversity is far far beyond an issue of race." - You.</p>
<p>Thanks for drudging up an old thread for a mistargeted rant though. Gave me something to do at work.</p>
<p>How about looking at it from another angle. Does having a large enough URM population make it more atrractive to other top urm students? I know it is something I keep in the back of my mind as my daughter evaluates her choices. I know she could handle a very white environment - we do live in Minn- but it might be nice to not always be the token minority.</p>