Not sure if I’m taking the bait here, and suspect that the OP is attempting to put some agenda forth, but I think the original post is a terrible one for newbies and is not all that accurate. As has been pointed out by many others, private schools can be just as inexpensive as public schools, some public schools can be more selective than many private schools, and the definition of “elite” could be argued. I mean, kinda sad that if your kid is one of the 3% chosen at a public college that auditions more than 700, they get categorized here as “less selective.” OK, yup I’m talking about my kid and my kid’s school (Montclair), where 700 was the number BEFORE they gave in-state tuition to all. And yes, public colleges CAN be a bargain, but so can private schools (two of my daughter’s private college acceptances ended up costing about the same as her public college acceptance), both kinds can be extremely selective, a public program could be “better” and more selective than a private one, and hey, remember all those zillions of posts here talking about fit? Case in point my kid applied to 11 MT programs (only one was a “top three” -or “elite”?- but she didn’t like the other two), ALL but one were private college programs, and no financial constraints were put on her. She got into 6 good programs, all private schools but one. She could have gone to any, totally her choice, and graduate debt free. And guess what? She picked the public (state) school because she liked it the best. For her, that program was the best fit. And it is a TRULY fabulous program. Oh, and there are alumni on Broadway. And kids who have transferred in from the “elite” list. So I guess I’m reacting to some veiled suggestion by the OP that state schools may not be QUITE as good or as selective as private schools, but are a great way to save money. Please know, any newbie reading this, that there are fabulous programs in state schools that are not any less selective or lesser in quality in any way than many programs in private colleges. And there are students who choose these public programs because of the high quality, and the fit, not the price.
@Calliene - I agree with you on many points- esp wondering about the ideology/agenda of the OP- who has not made a significant number of contributions (14) but seems to have expressed some strong opinions. Now for all I know, the OP may be someone else who has a MASSIVE amounts of theater knowledge - and it is certainly NOT true that a larger # of posts creates the greatest amounts of knowledge (meaning no disrespect to those who have posted many times) But the situation does make me say Hmmmmmm.
I found it kind of interesting that if you sort the Music Theatre Schools sub-forum by level of interest (I used “Replies” to sort), then 8 of the top 10 schools, 13 of the top 15 schools, and 15 of the top 20 are Private schools. So, historically, measured by level of interest in sub-forums, Private schools have dominated the discourse here on CC.
Not sure how the OP makes the blanket statement that these schools are rarely the first choice of high caliber MT students. I agree with @EmsDad, Texas State is highly competitive and ultra selective. My S chose this program after being admitted to many top tier programs including Carnegie Mellon, Penn State, Elon, Otterbein, Baldwn Wallace, etc. sorry to brag but I believe that makes him a “high caliber MT student”.
It is very difficult, and damaging, to make such blanket statements like this on CC. I am sure there may be other schools who also fall in this category. We can all discuss what is an elite school, a top 5 school, a “top program”, etc but I think we can at least agree that Texas State is in the discussion.
Texas State accepts a class of 12-14 from and applicant pool party f over 1200. It has students who have turned down Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, CCM, Ithaca, etc., it has last years winner of the National High School Musical Theatre Awards as well as several finalists, and it has winners of the National Songbook Competition.
I think the OPs post is helpful but I think we all need to avoid these labels and let each student decide what is right for them. It certainly is helpful to list less expensive schools who provide a high quality MT education.
Agree, @MTDadandProud, thought of you too reading the original post, and felt that TSU’s absence from the original discussion was telling. If nothing else, the OP’s research seems to be a bit outdated.
I appreciate and I agree with the wonderful feedback from so many people. There will always be inherent subjectivity in this process simply because we do not have access to full information. The intent of my post was not denigrate or elevate certain programs, but to get people thinking about good MT programs that may be overlooked by promising musical theatre students. And because this is a moving target, good MT schools which may have been under the radar (so to speak) and which are relatively less expensive, can become well known and start attracting large numbers of auditioners, as mom4bwayboy so ably points out about Wright State,
“Currently, students must audition as prospective incoming freshmen to get into the theatre program. Of the 450 aspiring students from around the nation who auditioned this year, only 8 percent were accepted.”
If there are errors, please, by all means, point them out. After all, this is a discussion board. Wisdom is found in the counsel of many.
Some have suggested that I may have an agenda in my original post. I have no particular agenda in offering my original post, other than wanting to help potential MT college students (who want to become professional musical theatre performers) avoid excessive college debt while at the same time putting themselves in the best position possible to succeed as professionals after graduation.
As I said in my original post,
“If you are talented and fortunate enough to get accepted at an elite MT school, and you can afford the cost, and won’t graduate with monstrous debt, then I say go for it.” I apologize if the word elite offended anyone.
With respect to Texas State, my apologies if I offended anyone with my characterization of it. Everyone knows that Texas State is a fine school and any student who is fortunate enough to go there is blessed indeed. That’s why I included it in this sentence,
“Many of these [public school] audition programs are quite competitive (Ball State University, Texas State University, Missouri State University), but not quite as competitive as the elite MT programs (Michigan, Cincinnati, Carnegie-Mellon, Ithaca, etc.).”
If Texas State is as competitive to get in as the “elite” schools I mentioned, then so be it.
By the way, I have no bias against private MT schools. They are great. I just wanted to highlight some of the public MT schools that offer a high quality MT education. If you can get into a prestigious private MT school and you can afford it (without going into excessive debt), then please, by all means, do so, if that’s what you desire. I am not offended by that.
And with respect to Calliene’s points about her daughter,
“She got into 6 good programs, all private schools but one. She could have gone to any, totally her choice, and graduate debt free. And guess what? She picked the public (state) school because she liked it the best. For her, that program was the best fit. And it is a TRULY fabulous program. Oh, and there are alumni on Broadway.”
I say more power to her. Your daughter is a perfect illustration of what I was trying to get across, which is this,
“In your zeal to go to the best school for MT, don’t overlook the public school right there in front of you. It may not just be the best school for you, it could be the best school”
Once again, I wasn’t denigrating public colleges by putting them on this list. If anyone felt that I denigrated a college or that it shouldn’t be on this list because it should judged as higher up than where I put it, then feel free to educate all of us.
Finally, I stand by my assertion that, all things being equal, the average college student will graduate from college with less debt from a public school than a private school.
“If the question is: ”Which colleges leave individual students with the biggest debt loads?” the answer is easy: private colleges. The average private college borrower in 2008, the latest year for which information is available, left school $27,650 in debt. . . . The average public college borrower left school $20,200 in debt.”
Source: Washington Monthly
August 26, 2013 3:08 PM
Student Loan Debt: Focus on Public Colleges
By Daniel Luzer
@sunsetweekend (really nice screen name btw) all opinions are welcome. What troubled ME with rewards to you OP (I cannot and do not speak for anyone else) was that there were obvious errors in your 1st post- you seemed unaware that TX state has risen rapidly to national renown (mtdadandproud recounts that many choose it over other traditional “elite” programs like CMU etc), you listed Syracuse as a public school (tuition alone there is nearly $50k ) etc. Are these hideous mistakes- of course not- but for ME they take away from the reliability of the post where you “seem” to be setting yourself up as an expert. For ME - tempering your post with “I think” or “it seems like” might have gone a long way. You seem to be taking hard stands in an area (theater as a whole) where there are as many exceptions as rules. And my opinion has nothing to do with the fact that my family chose a private school - we’re completely comfortable with D’s school.
Question- do you have a kid in school yet-or are you still in the hunt? Things change as you go through the process, might be best to keep an open mind
To toowonderful, I apologize for any errors. I was aware of Texas State’s status and I debated even putting it on the list, but with all of my qualifiers (clearly not enough of them : ), I thought I would leave it there as a less expensive alternative. On retrospect, I probably should have removed it, as it seemed to cause more heat than light.
My tone was probably more authoritative than it needed to be, but most “authors” (btw, I am not an author) usually write with a clear argument, so as to generate discussion. People don’t tend to read books which do not articulate a clear viewpoint.
Another point. This site is, after all, an anonymous discussion board, and as such, I assume that everyone reading it is taking all of these opinions, including mine, with a grain of salt. That’s not meant to suggest that we allow outright falsehoods and slander, only that people are free to accept or reject the opinions expressed. With that being said, I have endeavored to write truthfully from my research and experience, and I take responsibility for any errors and welcome any corrections and clarifications.
In answer to toowonderful’s question, my child is in a BFA in MT program. Also, truth in advertising, my child does attend a public college. Therefore, my thoughts on this topic are not based on idle speculation, but on personal experience and extensive research. I don’t claim to have entirely accurate insights about what schools should be included on a list of “Quality Cheaper MT Programs at Public Colleges” but considering that EmsDad pointed out that
“15 of the top 20 [schools in the MT Schools sub-forum are Private schools. So, historically, measured by level of interest in sub-forums, Private schools have dominated the discourse here on CC.”
I don’t think a list like mine will hurt the forum at all. Why don’t we spread the love around, so to speak, and highlight a wider variety of quality schools instead of focusing on these top 20 schools with ridiculously difficult acceptance rates?
Once again, that comment above is not meant to be a slam on private schools. If my child was accepted at a private MT school like NYU and could go there for free (or more realistically with very low loan debt) , I would probably strongly encourage my child to go. But that doesn’t happen to very many people. Most graduate with significant debt loads.
During our family’s application/audition process, I thoroughly researched a variety of schools and I learned much in the process. “We” applied to a number of schools, both public and private, and in so doing, I quickly began to realize that college debt today is extremely onerous, and particularly so, for average middle class kids whose parents cannot pay substantial amounts. Therefore, the burden of paying for college is borne by students through loan debt.
As I said before,
“all things being equal, the average college student will graduate from college with less debt from a public school than a private school.”
While I agree that there are always exceptions to this rule, I would not go so far as to say that there are as many exceptions to this rule, as the rule itself. If I randomly pick 1,000 recent grads from private colleges and randomly pick 1,000 recent grads from public colleges, the average loan debt of the private college grads will be higher than the average loan debt of the public college grads.
Now, if I select just one grad out of those 1,000 private college grads, and just one grad out of of those 1,000 public college grads, I may find that the private college grad I have chosen has less debt than the public college grad I chose, but that doesn’t mean that the average public school grad will have less debt than the average private school grad. The one private school grad I chose may be an exception to the rule, but that doesn’t invalidate the “rule”.
All of this just goes to show that you need to fill out your FAFSA, apply for any merit/talent aid you are eligible for, and see how good of a “deal” each school will give you. That deal will depend on the student’s circumstances, and as many have pointed out, sometimes the private college’s deal will beat the public college’s deal. But, if you ignore the non-flagship/regional/directional, public universities (particularly in your own state) that have good MT programs, you may never know just how good of a deal you could have received.
As others have pointed out, public is not always cheaper than private. While the price tag is cheaper, particularly if it is your own state’s public, what matters is the bottom line after financial aid packages are awarded. Some private schools are well endowed and meet full need-based aid (this includes some of the most selective private schools in the nation).
In my D’s case, the school on her list with the highest price tag, gave the most financial aid to her of any of her schools…this was at NYU.
Another thing is that the original argument of a theater student not going into much debt makes sense. However, this is assuming that for those who receive financial aid loans, that the student is the one incurring the debt. That is true in SOME cases and yes, a theater graduate needs to think long and hard about having too much debt (some should be OK). BUT, for many families, the parents are the ones paying and the ones incurring the debt. That is true in my family.
By the way, there were no BFAs in MT in our state…public or private.
So, there are all sorts of situations.
Again- with an eye towards “newbies” I would hate to think that people assume a program HAS to be at a public school to be the least expensive choice.
My D would graduate from ANY program debt free- b/c we are paying- but like soozie- we will be paying for it for awhile. That’s our family’s choice- and every family needs to make their own decisions. We decided that finances weren’t going to be the final determining factor- if they were, she would be at the BA where she got a full ride (a private college btw) but again that was our choice.
My advice would be go in with your eyes open. I think the “schools known for good merit aide” list might be more helpful than the one in the OP
We have two public BFA MTs in our state:
Indiana University & Ball State.
Both are uber competitve. So yeah, being a hoosier isn’t so great after all. 
I have a friend who assists others in college cost planning. She has told me to flat out forget getting any aid from the Fafsa application. Since we won’t be considered needy by their formulas, (but will never be able to afford the private college tuitions,) does that mean the MT depts won’t even consider my D for talent scholarship aid? Will she be one of those who needs to consider the lower priced public colleges?
I hear many people say they got more aid from private schools than public, but is that due to your Fafsa qualifications or the fact that they liked your student and wanted to offer her/him a very good deal regardless of financials? I’m a little confused on what to expect.
Thanks for any input.
In my experience non need aide (which is what is determined by fafsa) is more likely to come from merit than talent at both public and private schools
@mtmcmt your child would most likely also be eligible for merit Aid based on your D’s grades and SAT/ACT score. We do not qualify for need based aid from the government either but at several private schools we are looking at , the financial aid officers we spoke with pointed this out and some schools have a very set criteria for it, like certain grades = x amount of scholarship from the school. If it weren’t for this my D couldn’t apply to a lot of schools on her list. There are talent scholarships too but it seems they tend to be smaller amounts. What’s great is if stack merit on top of talent money. I think Rider has a set amount on the literature they sent me as to merit aid. I am sure there’s a thread about this somewhere.
@sunsetweekend I am not put off by your original post about the less expensive public and lesser known programs. I am sure you were just trying to be helpful.
@mtmcmt There are two kinds of financial aid…need based (and yes, determined by FAFSA formulas) and merit based. With regard to need-based aid, you need to run the Net Price Calculator for a particular college and see what the estimate is in your situation. For merit aid, you need to research if a particular college offers merit aid, which is not based on financial need. Merit aid can be for academic merit and/or for talent.
FASFA hates us too. Nothing for us - even with two kids in college.
Our MT kid received $$ in merit aid based on ACT/SAT + GPA. And also received an additional talent scholarship. She is attending Nebraska Wesleyan.
Her older sister received $$$$$$$$$ in the form of need based grants. She’s at Vanderbilt who guarantees to meet 100% of a family’s demonstrated financial aid w/o loans.
In my humble opinion, there are two ways to get $$ for college … 1. High SAT/ACT + GPA + great ECs. This may get you into those elite lottery schools that give great aid in the form of grants. Or 2 … undershoot. Basically, have better stats than the average student at a particular school - that will translate into more $$.
It really doesn’t help that being a potential MT BFA candidate adds an extra layer of difficulty in the admission process. But knowing how the $$ game is played can help cultivate a good list of schools to audition for.
By the way, in reviewing my initial post, I noticed that I referred to Branson, MO as the “Live Music Capital of the World”. That is an error. Austin, TX bills itself as the “Live Music Capital of the World”.
Branson. MO bills itself as the “Live Entertainment Capital of the World”.
My apologies for the error.
We did not qualify for anything from FAFSA either. But D does get academic, talent and leadership scholarships from her school which makes her private school affordable for us.
I’d also recommend looking at your own community and at some of the national scholarships available and consider applying to ones that are a fit for you. Even if it’s just $200 it pays for some textbooks, etc… There are rotary scholarships, private family foundations who give scholarships, big national programs like Kohl’s, Coca-Cola, Prudential and AXA — locally check with your high school counselor and see if they can recommend ones to which you could apply. One suggestion - if you do get scholarships this way you may need to see if it effects what aid you will receive from your school. But if you are not going to get much or any financial aid but wish to cut college costs, we found the time spent applying for these individual outside scholarships well worth it. Some were based on grades, some community service, some you could submit a video or written essay. Find ones that make sense for you.
@mtmcmt - to add on to what others have said:
If you have good grades and good test scores (and sometimes they don’t have to be all that high), you will generally receive “automatic” non-need-based merit scholarships from many of the schools posted at the top of this forum. “Automatic” means that you do not need to apply for the scholarship, it will be determined and granted as a result of your application. Sometimes the letter is bundled in with your academic acceptance letter, sometimes it comes separately. These scholarships generally have nothing to do with FAFSA.
Many schools post the criteria and amounts for these scholarships. Google-ing “ merit aid scholarships” will generally find the web page with merit scholarhips information for most schools. Some schools do not post merit aid specifics, some are very specific.
D got ZERO from FAFSA but received hundreds of thousands of dollars in automatic merit aid scholarships. Some schools, like Florida State, offer in-state tuition in addition to merit aid for good grades and test scores.
Here are a couple of examples:
Reference: http://www.webster.edu/financialaid/scholarships.html
Reference: https://wmich.edu/admissions/freshmen/cost-scholarships/scholarships
Talent scholarships are another form of non-need based aid. For MT, they are generally awarded by the Theatre Department based on whatever criteria the department decides to apply. From my observation of many students from d’s HS, some schools, like Oklahoma City and Point Park, seem to award talent scholarships in varying amounts to most students who receive an artistic acceptance. These are non-need-based scholarships that, in general, have nothing to do with FAFSA.
School data for non-need based Merit Aid is posted on CollegeData.com (along with need-based aid). You can look up the average non-need-based Merit Aid award for any college in the country on that website (or find the “Common Data Set” info on the website of any college). Also, some/many of the Net Price Calculators for various schools will show the projected non-need-based Merit Aid amounts based on the GPA and test scores input.