Yes I think the OP said that in the 1st post, that this mostly applied to your own in state schools, I don’t think she/he was implying you would choose an OOS school over a private one , only if you lived in a state with a good MT program avail at your in state school and were comparing it to private schools. The OP did acknowledge that schools like penn state were expensive for OOS. For my own example I live in MD and we don’t have any MT programs that are BA /BFA. But we moved from WV. WV has 2 programs in MT. One at a private school and one at WVU which is public university. The in state tuition for WVU is inexpensive, well like $17000 for tuition and room and board. The private school is about $34000 or so . But private school gives lots of merit aid and talent. So it might end up the same. State school gives scholarships too so might still be cheaper. I think the OP was just trying to state that some people may snub the state schools because they are usually the cheaper option for in state and you should always investigate and not discount your in state public options.
I can’t imagine snubbing one’s in state public options. But first of all, many of us come from states with NO in state public option for MT…such as my D from Vermont. Further, since getting into a MT program is difficult, and there may be just one in-state public with that major, one would have to cast a wider net no matter what. Plus, while cost is certainly a factor for many, many, many people, a student should just apply to schools that fit them well, and their in-state public may or may not.
While not for MT, my older D was offered a free ride at our very nice public university, University of Vermont, a school she did not intend to apply to. Full ride scholarships are offered to every valedictorian in the state, of which she was one. While UVM is a terrific school, it was not a good fit for my daughter in a variety of ways. For starters, it didn’t even have her intended major. But there were several other ways it was not a good fit, and not worth listing them all here. So, she had other safety schools for her list, which were privates and out of state.
To Emsdad, you make a good point when you say that,
“statistically speaking, based on average non-need based merit aid, there are many private schools which are less than OOS tuition + merit aid at public schools,”
You go on to say,
“I suppose an argument could be made about public schools with MT programs being generally less expensive than private schools with MT programs for those who will not qualify for merit aid. However, that is putting a lot of stipulations on the argument”
IMHO, I did not put any stipulation on my argument when I said that on average a student will find a cheaper MT education at a public school than at a private school. The average is the average and it the best measure to use when comparing gross categories. It is not a stipulation, per se, but the common means by which we compare.
Stating that
“public schools with MT programs being generally less expensive than private schools with MT programs for those who will not qualify for merit aid.”
is stating a stipulation. I did not make that stipulation.
It is good to hear that your data indicates that MT students are great students and fully capable of receiving merit aid. That’s good to know. But most of us are average. And I suspect that there are plenty of readers out there whose students are talented artistically, but still are not at the high standards needed to receive the generous amounts of merit aid needed to offset the generally higher tuition rates found at private colleges.
You state that
“A focus on public schools as a cheaper alternative is therefore somewhat questionable, in my mind.”
Well, as in almost all things in life, it depends, but certain rules of thumb are useful guides. Of course, people will have to do their own homework to decide what’s best for their family.
@theaterwork, I kind of ragged on the OP because I thought the initial post was somewhat implying that state school’s programs were cheaper yes, but also inferior, which most of us know is not the case and I didn’t want a newbie to get that message. The OP has since clarified that. I thought it important to point out that my kid chose a program in a public college over programs in 5 other private colleges, and it wasn’t in-state for us (our state doesn’t have a BFA MT program)! Montclair now gives in-state tuition to all, but it didn’t then.
I don’t know how to do the grey text box thingie - so I apologize in advance…
@sunsetweekend - in post #62 you said “IMHO, I did not put any stipulation on my argument when I said that on average a student will find a cheaper MT education at a public school than at a private school”
But in post #26 you said “Finally, I stand by my assertion that, all things being equal, the average college student will graduate from college with less debt from a public school than a private school.”
I understand that there is a difference between cost and debt - but in this instance, aren’t they fairly synonymous? I point this out not to “pick on” anyone - but to attempt to find clarity in what has become (to my mind) a fairly convoluted discussion.
On the other hand the issue of what to focus on in choosing a program (cost vs. reputation, opportunities etc) can be seen in many ways. And that is ok- because there are as many paths as there are BFA programs. One of my grandmothers used to say- “for every shoe god made a sock” - families should focus on what works for them and go from there
I’m not sure, but think the horse has lost consciousness.
I know this was addressing @EmsDad …but it harkens back to a point I tried to make earlier that many (but not all) BFA in MT programs are located in less selective universities…schools that have more than a 50% admit rate (the college itself, not the MT program) and the stats of accepted students is not truly above average. Thus, the standards to receive merit aid at some of the very good MT programs that are located in not so academically selective universities and have higher overall acceptance rates may not be what one may think of as “high.”
It’s probably most prudent just to apply to a variety of private and public colleges and to hold off judgement till 1) you receive an offer, and 2) what kind of financial package they are willing to give you, and 3) if you can negotiate a better financial offer. It is just another piece of the college puzzle (though, granted, a rather important piece).
Which is why, for those of us not willing to/not interested in spending close to a quarter million to educate our kids in MT, it is necessary to audition at upwards of 20 schools. Just ask @MTDadandProud, whose kid totally did what @16bars is suggesting after auditioning and getting acceptances at numerous schools.
If money is no object, then maybe you don’t need to cast as wide of a net. But for the majority, even those that can afford to pay the extremely high-priced tuition without loans or sacrifices, many simply prefer to have options.
I agree that is always wise to consider an in-state public as a possible choice if it has a MT program. However, there are so many twists and turns with various possible need-based, merit and talent aid programs that often it is hard to predict which options may be the least expensive. As CA residents, I noticed that UCI is on the OP’s list. For an in-state student who needs R&B, UCI costs around $35.000/year. (OOS is around $55,000) The UC’s are not known for much aid. At the time my DD applied for MT programs a ways back, she didn’t apply to UCI, but was accepted to UCLA’s MT program with no financial aid. Contrary to stories of Penn State’s stInginess for OOS students, she was also accepted as an MT student at Penn State with essentially a full tuition talent award. For her, the OOS public was the best choice. I just hope new MT applicants consider a wide variety of programs to find one that is both a good fit and cost effective.
Unless money is no object, the goal is to end up with with a strong MT program at a reasonable cost, as @MTDadandProud did. We ended up doing much the same, just adding location to the mix, and Montclair’s easy access to the NYC theater scene. But money was definitely a factor. You really must see your financial packages before you can make a final decision…and you shouldn’t assume anything, financially, as each school has different reasons why they give certain aid/scholarships packages. Even a school notorious for not giving ANY aid can occasionally surprise you for by offering a full ride to “the right person.” But those are rare exceptions… and seldom the rule.
I appreciate the original list, with all the caveats, @sunsetweekend, and the discussion that followed. (Bookmarking for the future, because while my D16 is headed in a different direction, D19 may be going this route.)
Thanks to @Walker1194, too, for the mention of U of Utah, which my girl’s voice coach has talked about favorably. (We would be OOS). I did not realize kids can be considered in-state after first year.
Well @takeitallin that’s good to know about Penn State. We had pretty much removed it because of OOS tuition being too high and figuring little aid would be given but your D got a full tuition talent award?
@MidwestMomTo2: you do have to jump through some hoops to qualify for in-state tuition at Utah, as well as Western Michigan and a few other schools were it is possible to qualify after one year. Typical requirements include (requirements vary between schools):
- residency for 12 consecutive months (i.e., you have to attend summer school for both sessions and/or stay and work over the summer)
- an in-state driver's license, voter registration, etc.
- evidence of employment
- you must not been out of the state for more than 30 days over the past 12 months
Some schools grant in-state tuition as a form of merit aid. D received an in-state tuition offer from Florida State.
thanks, @EmsDad, we have family in Utah (in fact, both S and BIL teach at University of Utah), so if we went that route, D19 would very likely end up moving there and not have much issue meeting those requirements for Utah.
i appreciate this thread, and your information (in many threads) because my second child’s college search will be completely different than my first, like starting from scratch.
Even coming from OOS, U of Utah was cheaper than our instate option (UC Irvine). Utah is a member of the WUE (basically OOS kids pay 1.5 times IN state tuition if they’re from a neighboring state). While this didn’t help us (the WUE money was gone by the time we accepted) they do have a fairly generous Freshman Academic Scholarship and my daughter is staying over the summer to get her residency. It ended up being quite a bit less than UC Irvine and, more importantly for our daughter–she is in a BFA program–not in UCI’s audition up and/or cut program.
In response to vvnstar’ s comment:
“Make sure you understand all costs for each program before you scratch great programs from your list. Don’t assume anything.”
My sentiments exactly. That’s why I said please don’t restrict your research for an MT school to this list, or any other list. I would also add, don’t assume that great MT programs aren’t found at MT public schools which are not as highly selective as the highly selective MT public schools (like the Michigans, Penn States, and yes, the Texas States of the world) or the highly selective MT private schools.
In response to “Public schools tend to only be cheaper only when it’s your in-state school.”
While that is true in some cases, it isn’t true in all.
An article found on the George Washington University Graduate School of Education website states:
“The cost of private institutions on average is substantially higher than public institutions. Many times [certainly not always], even attending an out-of-state school will be cheaper than attending a private college or university. Visit http://nces.ed.gov/ to research the cost of any private school you wish to attend.”
Article: In-State vs. Out-of-State Tuition
Author - Hasani Isreal
As always, your individual situation may differ.
I appreciate vvnstar saying, “please don’t feel like we are picking on you.”
I must say though, that it can feel like that, because no matter how carefully I try to word my responses, or acknowledge that cost is not the only factor in your selection process, many seem intent on discrediting my basic argument that one should at least consider the generally cheaper alternative of a public school MT program, instead of simply focusing on the same schools which have ridiculously high numbers of auditionees and ridiculously low numbers of acceptances. I have tried to bend over backwards to acknowledge that my analysis is not bulletproof, that costs are variable across institutions, that people must make their own choices, and yet the critiques continue. Perhaps, I am being overly defensive, after all, “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.”
But after awhile, I begin to wonder why some seem so troubled by even the suggestion that one could find a relatively good and cheaper MT alternative at some public schools. It is as if that very suggestion is an effront. I don’t get it. It wasn’t meant as a personal attack on private MT schools (and I welcomed corrections/additions to the list).
I am not offended by the belief that many private schools can offer a superior MT education at a price comparable to a public school education. But it is also true that many private schools don’t offer an MT education at a price comparable to a public school MT education.
I have read extensively through the CC threads devoted to MT education, and if I am wrong, please forgive me, but the majority of comments seem to focus upon very selective schools, many of which are private, but certainly not all. It isn’t as if the Ithacas, Baldwin-Wallaces, and NYUs of the world need more good press. They have plenty. I’m not here to drag them down.
I have no way of knowing the median income of CC posters, but I sometimes wonder if they have more income than I do. Perhaps, I am only speaking to a small sub-segment of the CC community who in many cases, certainly not all, simply cannot afford the cost of a private school MT education. If so, l hope this discussion has been of service to them.
In any event, those who have taken umbrage at my comments shouldn’t be concerned that my comments will lead many people astray from affordable private schools. Probably nothing will dissuade those who are committed to going to a private school in favor of a generic southwest state.
It was never my intent to tell people that these public MT schools are better or always cheaper than a private MT school. I never said that anyone should refrain from seeking out private MT schools. But I do hope that this discussion will encourage more thorough exploration by parents and students of the entire MT collegiate landscape and a more sober assessment of the debt they may incur at said colleges, as they chase their Broadway dream.
On this we are agreed:
“don’t assume that all public schools are cheaper than all private schools.”
But could we also agree to this statement?
“don’t assume that all regional/directional/non-flagship public schools provide an inferior MT education as compared to all private schools that offer an MT education.”
Well I would agree, which I have stated before, that there is very little discussion on this forum about lesser known MT programs. Most of the posters here are only talking about the more well known programs and that’s where their kids are applying. We personally have 5 schools on our list that no one has ever mentioned here or even said they were applying at. I will agree that there probably is a more financially able person that tends to post on this forum. Not that that’s a bad thing but I’m willing to bet that’s the case.
@sunsetweekend- if I was one of the people (and I suspect I am) you felt was picking on you - I apologize. It is clear that we have different perspectives, but that doesn’t mean one is right and the other is wrong. Thank your for your contributions, I hope they provide additional options to people who are looking for ideas.