Question about High School Math Sequence

Applying to College
1

My daughter is in 8th grade and will be in high school next year. She’s an excellent student and is in an accelerated math class (other option is ‘regular’ math)…

The high school has 5 math ‘tracks’; she plans on taking one of the two most difficult tracks. The sequence for the Honors track (most difficult) ends with students taking either AP Calculus BC or AP Calculus AB senior year. The Accelerated track (second most difficult) ends with Pre-Calculus in senior year. Her current math teacher thinks she would do well in either track.

She wants to take the Accelerated sequence so she can have more time for other pursuits, in other subjects (she likes math well enough but it’s not her favorite) and dance/drama which she enjoys although she doesn’t plan a career in it. My husband and I are inclined to let her do this because she is hardworking with varied interests and we believe she’d put the extra time gained by taking a less difficult course to good use.

My only concern is whether she is cutting herself off from applying to (and getting into) more academically demanding colleges by not taking the most difficult math course. She would probably take Honors/AP level courses in other subjects.

She doesn’t have a burning desire to go to an Ivy League/Stanford type school and I don’t think she’ll develop one, but I don’t want her to be cut off from future opportunities either.

A looked at the admission requirements for a few schools (Scripps College, Trinity College-CT, University of Rochester, our state flagship) I think are on an appropriate academic level for her and it looks like she’d be fine; I just want to hear other opinions and whether there’s anything I haven’t thought of.

Thanks!

2

@DragonBoatGirl‌ Honors track definitely. Because whatever major she goes into it is going to look better on her application that she ended with AP calc. Most kids take pre calc their sophomore or junior year ( I took it sophomore). Also she might change her mind on majors and schools. Its better to have the advanced math than to go without. I started high school thinking I wanted to be a chef and I messed up in my first two years of math. Now I’m a math major. Dont let her make the same mistakes I did. Just do it as a safety.

3

The “accelerated” track looks like a normal grade level track, since precalculus is the normal 12th grade math course for college-bound students, while the “honors” track finishes one semester (AB) or one year (BC) advanced (so that presumably means that the two other tracks are for students weaker than normal in math).

If her current math course in 8th grade is equivalent to high school algebra 1 that would be the normal grade level course in 9th grade, then she can stay on the “honors” track. In this case, dropping down to the “accelerated” track would likely mean repeating a course along the way.

Typical progressions:



Grade           Normal          Advanced
                ("accelerated") ("honors")
8th             pre-algebra     algebra 1
9th             algebra 1       geometry
10th            geometry        algebra 2
11th            algebra 2       precalculus
12th            precalculus     calculus
4

The precalculus track is not “accelerated”, it’s normal. Have her take the ap calc track.

5

Ask her current math teacher. Print out the information, and write a note, asking for guidance.

Her math teacher is in a far better position to evaluate your daughter’s ability and the rigor of the coursework, particularly in a local school, than strangers online.

6

What is her desired major? If it has little to do with math per say then you might want to consider that for which track?

7

Even if her desired major is not in a STEM field, she should still do the Honors track. Her mind may always change with both college selection choices and career choices. Keep her options as open as possible and make her course selection be as rigorous as possible.

If she goes Accelerated, there may be a possibility that (when GC recommendations roll around), the GC will not say your daughter took as rigorous a load as she could have. That could affect adcom consideration. So check with the GC and ask how each track could affect his/her choice selection.

8

At minimum, she should finish Calculus AB by the end of HS.

9

Definitely the calc track. Plenty of people have done calc and tons of extracurriculars so your daughter should be fine.

10

The “normal” track at my school was Algebra 2, Geometry, Precalc, Calc 1. Accelerated went up to Calc 2. So definitely take the “honors” version – that’s what a lot of people do.

11

As someone who is good at math (just good at it, I’m more interested in science stuff), I do not think AP Calc is hard comparing to most other ap courses. If your daughter has a solid foundation on all math skills, take the honors track because it will most likely not be in the way of having tons of extracurriculum and time for other interesting things.

12

Thank you so much to everyone who weighed in! I was convinced to speak with my daughter and ask/encourage her to take the more difficult class. However, last Friday we received her tentative course schedule and her teacher recommended that she take ‘regular’ college prep math instead of Honors. She actually asked me about appealing and attempting the Honors course; then my husband blew away that idea by saying he thought she should stay in the ‘regular’ class. I still may contact her teacher again and ask her what she thinks, but unless she is very encouraging it may be better for my daughter to concentrate on other subjects for Honors-level work.

Speaking with her guidance counselor-to-be about the ‘most rigorous’ schedule is a good idea. I have a feeling that so long as she takes other Honors courses, there shouldn’t be a problem with the g.c.'s designation of course rigor. Our (public) school, which is in the northeast, is somewhat different than many schools I have read about here as students are discouraged from taking more than two, or at most three, Honors or AP courses per semester. My older daughter, who took three Honors/AP courses each semester, received a full-tuition scholarship to a very good state university and is likely to be admitted into some excellent schools, so I don’t think that the relative lack of Honors/AP courses compared to some worked against her (the school policy is explained in material the school sends out).

I had to laugh at the realization that what the schools calls “Advanced Accelerated College Prep” math is just ‘normal’ math for students who plan to attend college (which almost everyone at her school does). This is definitely a Lake-Wobegon-type area where “all children are above-average”, but IMHO it really is incredible hype to describe regular college-prep math as “Advanced Accelerated” and make it the second-highest level of the five total levels, when in actuality it is just ‘regular math’. It’s not like it’s doing the kids any favors either, encouraging them to think of themselves as advanced when they’re not. That level is the continuation of her current “accelerated math” program; I’m not sure what the students in ‘regular’ 8th grade math are supposed to take.

Anyway, I very much appreciate the excellent and thoughtful advice from so many of you. I will do my best to return the favor when I have anything intelligent to say about high school and college prep, which I obviously do not understand as well as I thought I did.

Best regards,

DragonBoat

13

What may be relevant is what her current 8th grade math course is. Is it algebra 1 or pre-algebra? Usually, the normal versus advanced math decision is made by when the student takes algebra 1. If she is in algebra 1 and doing well, then the advanced (“honors”) track is the most appropriate track for her.

If she is currently in algebra 1 and doing well, you may want to investigate the school’s placement policies further. Are the advanced (“honors”) courses full, so they are pushing some students down to the normal courses? If so, how are they choosing which students to push down? Unfortunately, gender bias against girls in math placement is known to exist.

14

Kind of late, Pre-calculus at senior is a very,. very normal track. In my high school, there were good numbers of students(both girls and boys) who were at least 2~3 years ahead of normal track.

Another thing you can do is to ask the school if there is a math placement test. That’s what I did. Apparently the school didn’t really “push” the students to work too hard, but I insisted on taking the class. I was placed in Pre-calc on Freshmen, Calc AB on soph, BC on junior, and AP stats on Senior year. All of them I got As.

I also recommend you against listening to your counselor unless s/he is a really good advisor. Based on my personal experience, many counselors’ viewpoints are “calibrated” for average kids.

15

That’s a good idea, ucbalumnus. I’m not sure which she’s in, but I’ll find out. Before I saw your message, I wrote again to her math teacher because my daughter had said something about petitioning for permission to join Honors math, and knowing the school district she’s in, which very overtly caters to well-to-do and ‘connected’ community members, I wouldn’t be surprised if there needs to be some special process which needs to be followed to be considered for Honors, which only certain people know about. (I can’t recall the process by which my older child entered Honors math, but she was such a standout - she learned 7th and some of 8th grade math on her own, and was advanced to the point where her teacher suggested that she continue to study on her own instead of just following the predetermined curriculum - that the Honors placement was obvious.)

I’ll report what happens, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to follow up.

16

I am an Engineer and I know my dad was counseling me not take one of the honors courses that I took anyway…I was fine. If you think she can handle it (and not just "my child HAS to be above avg:) and your daughter wants to I think I would continue to push.

17

Heard back from her current math teacher. They make the recommendations based on a combination of “raw grades” (whatever that it), MCAS (state standardized test), a placement test, and a “skill set”. She said she was on the cusp of “Advanced Accelerated” (i.e. regular college prep) math and Honors that leads to either AB or BC calculus, and that she would agree to a waiver to be in the Honors class, although she thought it would be a substantial amount of work for her.

My daughter had mentioned to me that she thought high school would have more and harder homework than she has now, but was told at an orientation that the homework would be about the same, which may be why she asked about Honors a couple of weeks after she said she wanted regular math. She has a good amount of homework already and I wouldn’t want her load to be any greater.

She’ll be away this weekend but I’ll speak with my DH and then with her when she gets back, and encourage her to go for the Honors. I am a little concerned about how this will all play out, not even so much next year but the year after when they can begin taking other Honors classes (they can only do Honors in math in 9th grade) and can then take A.P. courses in 11th grade. The high school she’s at has a LOT of very high-powered professional families and can be very competitive and stressful. She’s a really nice kid, works hard but is very relaxed and social as well. She overcame a number of physical challenges when she was younger and it’s great to see her doing well and being happy.

We’re not pushy parents academically or any other way; sometimes I’m actually concerned that we don’t ‘push’ enough. I’d truly rather have my children be happier and more relaxed taking a slightly less competitive set of courses than feel stressed much of the time. On the other hand, I’m also paying attention to the many people who encouraged the more difficult course set and gave good reasons.

Either way, the decision isn’t set in stone. She can always go down a notch to regular college math if Honors is too intense, and there’s a structured program (not sure if it’s a class or on-your-own) during the summer after 10th grade for students in regular college math who want to move up to Honors math for the last two years. Her guidance counselor said 20 or 30 students do this each year (total class size for each grade is about 450; not sure how many are in each math level).

I really appreciate everyone weighing in; it’s made a difference because when I first wrote I was happy to have her be in the regular college math course (still can’t believe they call it “Advanced Accelerated”) and now I feel that I’d like her to try for the harder course. If she and her dad feel strongly about not doing Honors for some reason (she’s been back and forth, and my DH felt she should focus on other subjects) I may let it go but insist she does the 10th grade summer program, but I think things will work out. If they don’t, we’ll change it.

Now all I need to do is discuss college decisions with her sister and my DH, find a job, fix up and sell my mom’s apartment, do physical therapy, continue my own education…nothing to it!

I’ll report back when it’s settled. Thanks again,

DragonBoatGirl

18

The upshot - When my daughter returned from her trip yesterday, she told me that the teacher had spoken to her and another girl after class on Friday and said she had changed their recommendation to Honors math. The teacher said they’d need to work hard as it was a difficult course, but D. is fine with that.- she’s actually more concerned about getting the arts and graphic design classes she wanted for electives than what math course she will take.

As said above, it’s not set in stone. If it doesn’t work she can always drop down a level.

I truly appreciate everyone who weighed in. This is one of the things I like about CC - the opportunity to get different points of view and to hear about aspects of a situation I may not thought about. I hope I can return the favor/

Best regards,

DragonBoat

19

That’s really interesting that they are calling pre-calc the honors track. We have that for “average”, AB or BC for “accelerated” and Calc3 in senior year for “double accelerated”. There are about 40 kids each year (out of 320) that do just fine in the double. Both of my kids are on that track. I don’t think she will be very competitive ending w/pre-calc, but of course it all depends on what type of college/major she is interested in attending. It is usually pretty easy to move down, but if the class is not challenging it is often difficult to move up. Good luck! There are so many things we know now that I wish we knew before 8th grade.

20

Great! It is much easier to drop down than to move up a level.