<p>^</p>
<p>I probably seem more serious than I really am.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I doubt that highly. What you really want to say is that they rarely hire Asian Americans in general (hypothetically they should be 3% of any cast).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And Payne you would be WRONG.</p>
<p>These are the Asian-American males who have been regular cast members the past couple of seasons BD Wong in Law & Order SVU (short AM no semblance of a romantic life on the show); Masi Oka in Heroes (short, foreign AM); Daniel Dae Kim in Lost (decent looking AM, but foreigner however, the writers were originally going to have his characters wife leave him for another male Lost character); Alec Mapa in Half & Half (short, gay AM also played gay AM in recurring character in Desperate Housewives) and Rex Lee in Entourage (short, gay AM).</p>
<p>Note that there havent been any regular AM characters even on the doctor-themed shows (such as ER, Greys Anatomy, House, Scrubs, etc.) while there have been a no. of AF characters and many BM characters (esp. on ER and Greys) portrayed as physicians (despite AM doctors outnumbering BM doctors 4:1).</p>
<p>ER, however, did have Gedde Watanabe (of Sixteen Candles fame) play a nurse on the show and Greys Anatomy did finally have a young, attractive AM character with a romantic life on one episode (he was the gay partner of the bar owner).</p>
<p>Theres a reason why AM actors like Gedde Watanabe, Pat Morita, James Hong (who, btw, played the gay master of mystic arts in VH-1s Totally Awesome - a spoof of 80s films), etc. have the most film/tv credits for AM actors.</p>
<p>Take shows popular shows like Seinfield and Sex in the City.</p>
<p>In Seinfield, all of the AM characters were old or short and worked in the Chinese restaurant/take-out business, including Ping, the short, slight Chinese delivery guy. In one episode, George ends up on a date with Pings sister a tall, attractive attorney (see the contrast in portrayal?).</p>
<p>Same thing with SitC the only time there were any AMs was whenever the scene was a Chinese/sushi restaurant. However, there were a no, of AF characters (partnered with WMs or WFs) and the 4 leads of Sitc had romances with WMs (including foreign WMs), BMs and HMs (not to mention a HF).</p>
<p>And actually, the figure should be 4.7%, not 3% - not to mention the fact that Asian-American females are cast significantly more than Asian-American males and pretty much all of the Asian-American females actresses of note (like Lucy Liu, Ming Na, Sandra Oh, Kelly Hu, Tia Carrera, Grace Park, Lindsay Price, Moon Youngblood, etc.) have never had an AM love interest in a Hollywood production.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Damn. You do have a lot of frustration with the media.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not any more than what blacks had during the 70s and early 80s when the predominant image of blacks on TV were shows like Good Times, Sanford & Son, The Jeffersons, etc. portraying BMs primarily as uneducated, funny-looking/funny talking comic foils (and even today, there are many complaints despite the huge improvement where one would be hard pressed to find a drama w/o a BM, or two, in the cast).</p>
<p>
[quote]
These are the Asian-American males who have been regular cast members the past couple of seasons – BD Wong in “Law & Order SVU” (short AM – no semblance of a romantic life on the show); Masi Oka in “Heroes” (short, foreign AM); Daniel Dae Kim in “Lost” (decent looking AM, but foreigner – however, the writers were originally going to have his character’s wife leave him for another male “Lost” character); Alec Mapa in “Half & Half” (short, gay AM – also played gay AM in recurring character in “Desperate Housewives”) and Rex Lee in “Entourage” (short, gay AM).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ah, the ubiquitous gay Asian male. Apparently, despite only making up 2% of the American populace, Asian men make up 70% of its gay populace, at least according to TV-land.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Note that there haven’t been any regular AM characters even on the doctor-themed shows (such as ER, Grey’s Anatomy, House, Scrubs, etc.)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not to mention the lack of Asians in shows set in Ivy League schools (ahem, Gilmore Girls). If Asians aren't doctors or Ivy League students, just where the hell are they???</p>
<p>
[quote]
In “Seinfield”, all of the AM characters were old or short and worked in the Chinese restaurant/take-out business, including Ping, the short, slight Chinese delivery guy. In one episode, George ends up on a date with Ping’s sister – a tall, attractive attorney (see the contrast in portrayal?).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To be fair though, ALL characters in Seinfeld are unattractive and flawed. It didn't portray any race positively, Whites/Jews most of all.</p>
<p>There was one show, perhaps the first in history, that had an intelligent and attractive Asian-American male come out on top over people of all races: it was called Survivor. And guess what it didn't have? White "writers" who only think in cliched stereotypes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
These are the Asian-American males who have been regular cast members the past couple of seasons – BD Wong in “Law & Order SVU” (short AM – no semblance of a romantic life on the show); Masi Oka in “Heroes” (short, foreign AM); Daniel Dae Kim in “Lost” (decent looking AM, but foreigner – however, the writers were originally going to have his character’s wife leave him for another male “Lost” character); Alec Mapa in “Half & Half” (short, gay AM – also played gay AM in recurring character in “Desperate Housewives”) and Rex Lee in “Entourage” (short, gay AM).
[/quote]
Ok. They are underrepresented and portrayed in a negative light. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Note that there haven’t been any regular AM characters even on the doctor-themed shows (such as ER, Grey’s Anatomy, House, Scrubs, etc.) while there have been a no. of AF characters and many BM characters (esp. on ER and Grey’s) portrayed as physicians (despite AM doctors outnumbering BM doctors 4:1).
[/quote]
I've noticed this before as well. I also tend to notice a pronounced lack of Jewish looking doctors. Blacks are massively overrepresented on medical shows.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And actually, the figure should be 4.7%, not 3% - not to mention the fact that Asian-American females are cast significantly more than Asian-American males – and pretty much all of the Asian-American females actresses of note (like Lucy Liu, Ming Na, Sandra Oh, Kelly Hu, Tia Carrera, Grace Park, Lindsay Price, Moon Youngblood, etc.) have never had an AM love interest in a Hollywood production.
[/quote]
A good point. Maybe the issue isn't the lack of AA in entertainment then. Maybe the issue is the lack of AM in entertainment. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Not any more than what blacks had during the 70’s and early 80’s when the predominant image of blacks on TV were shows like “Good Times”, “Sanford & Son”, “The Jeffersons”, etc. portraying BMs primarily as uneducated, funny-looking/funny talking comic foils (and even today, there are many complaints despite the huge improvement – where one would be hard pressed to find a drama w/o a BM, or two, in the cast).
[/quote]
Blacks have managed to secure many many roles in shows (often at the expense of reality and other minorities). Simply put, not all groups can be represented above their population level.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ah, the ubiquitous gay Asian male. Apparently, despite only making up 2% of the American populace, Asian men make up 70% of its gay populace, at least according to TV-land.
[/quote]
But they won't be a gay lead - ever. They reserve that for whites.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not to mention the lack of Asians in shows set in Ivy League schools (ahem, Gilmore Girls). If Asians aren't doctors or Ivy League students, just where the hell are they???
[/quote]
Probably the most comical misrepresentation of reality I had ever seen.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To be fair though, ALL characters in Seinfeld are unattractive and flawed. It didn't portray any race positively, Whites/Jews most of all.
[/quote]
Damn, I miss out on all these subplots when I'm not wearing my racial glasses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There was one show, perhaps the first in history, that had an intelligent and attractive Asian-American male come out on top over people of all races: it was called Survivor. And guess what it didn't have? White "writers" who only think in cliched stereotypes.
[/quote]
That's actually funny - because I suspect that Asians are overrepresented in the Hollywood writing ranks (along with Whites).</p>
<p>
[quote]
To be fair though, ALL characters in Seinfeld are unattractive and flawed. It didn't portray any race positively, Whites/Jews most of all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But the Jewish characters weren’t emasculated. </p>
<p>Note all of Jerry’s love interests throughout the series – some of the most attractive Hollywood actresses (even George did alright for himself).</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've noticed this before as well. I also tend to notice a pronounced lack of Jewish looking doctors. Blacks are massively overrepresented on medical shows.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I’m sure some of the Jewish posters would take offense to “Jewish-looking doctors”, but there have been a good no. of Jewish doctors portrayed on shows (what’s his name on “Scrubs”, Dr. Greene on “ER”, William H. Macy as Dr. Morgenstern on “ER”, Adam Arkin’s and Mandy Patinkin’s characters in “Chicago Hope”, etc.).</p>
<p>The funny thing is that Sandra Oh's character's mother (in "Grey's") is married to a Jewish male.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's actually funny - because I suspect that Asians are overrepresented in the Hollywood writing ranks (along with Whites).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think that is necessarily true - but Asian-American writers/directors have all talked about the pressure to turn small, but developed (i.e. - non-stereotypical) roles for AMs into that for WMs or BMs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I’m sure some of the Jewish posters would take offense to “Jewish-looking doctors”, but there have been a good no. of Jewish doctors portrayed on shows (what’s his name on “Scrubs”, Dr. Greene on “ER”, William H. Macy as Dr. Morgenstern on “ER”, Adam Arkin’s and Mandy Patinkin’s characters in “Chicago Hope”, etc.).
[/quote]
Why would anyone take offense to something which is blatantly obvious? Anyways, I'm just mentioning that they are still underrepresented.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't think that is necessarily true - but Asian-American writers/directors have all talked about the pressure to turn small, but developed (i.e. - non-stereotypical) roles for AMs into that for WMs or BMs.
[/quote]
Trying to appeal to the biggest consumer base possible. Capitalism at its finest.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why would anyone take offense to something which is blatantly obvious? Anyways, I'm just mentioning that they are still underrepresented.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Im sure some people would take offense to the idea that Jews have a certain look.</p>
<p>Underrepresented on medical shows (there seems to be enough) or underrepresented on TV as a whole? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Trying to appeal to the biggest consumer base possible. Capitalism at its finest.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So what does this say about the thinking of producers/studio execs or what they think of what the public thinks?</p>
<p>Besides, if trying to appeal to the biggest consumer base is the goal, why exclude a group (esp. since it is for a secondary role and not a lead)?</p>
<p>And if that was the case why would producers/studio execs be OK with the increasing (positive) portrayals of homosexuals or that of BM/WF couplings (which are common on network TV) which are sure to turn off a significant segment of the viewing audience?</p>
<p>Plus, advertisers have been good at including AFs in commercials/advertisements, including those for products geared to women (cosmetics, clothing, shampoo, hair-coloring, skin-care, feminine hygiene, etc.) and at the same time, AMs are pretty much invisible when it comes to appearing in commercials/advertisement for mens products.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I’m sure some people would take offense to the idea that Jews have a certain look.
[/quote]
Virtually all racial groups have a certain look. If someone got offended over that they are an idiot, nothing less.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Underrepresented on medical shows (there seems to be enough) or underrepresented on TV as a whole?
[/quote]
I'd think the former.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So what does this say about the thinking of producers/studio execs or what they think of what the public thinks?
[/quote]
The latter. And that only confirms what we've always known: people have biases. This is not some big, original discovery.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Besides, if trying to appeal to the biggest consumer base is the goal, why exclude a group (esp. since it is for a secondary role and not a lead)?
[/quote]
You ask this, but I think that the gains are highly positive as of recent. I think Asians will continue to grow in their roles on television and cinema.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And if that was the case – why would producers/studio execs be OK with the increasing (positive) portrayals of homosexuals or that of BM/WF couplings (which are common on network TV) – which are sure to turn off a significant segment of the viewing audience?
[/quote]
And why do most cartoons always have action? And virtually none have girlie themes? Seriously, I don't know why it's that way. Is it cultural? Possibly. However, I'd suspect that making money is the primary motivator for all media industry executives. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Plus, advertisers have been good at including AFs in commercials/advertisements, including those for products geared to women (cosmetics, clothing, shampoo, hair-coloring, skin-care, feminine hygiene, etc.) and at the same time, AMs are pretty much invisible when it comes to appearing in commercials/advertisement for men’s products.
[/quote]
I'd suspect that's a direct function of market need. For some reason I doubt that the next line of AXE body spray repped by Asian males would be a hit in the core demographic (White males).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Virtually all racial groups have a certain look. If someone got offended over that they are an idiot, nothing less.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didnt realize Jews were a race.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And that only confirms what we've always known: people have biases. This is not some big, original discovery.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Right, but Hollywood has done a lot to be PC about blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals and Asians (well, Asian women).</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, I'd suspect that making money is the primary motivator for all media industry executives.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then they wouldnt be so PC with regard to the present day portrayal of homosexuals or by portraying BM/WF couplings as often as they do (which turn off a significant segment of the US pop.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd suspect that's a direct function of market need. For some reason I doubt that the next line of AXE body spray repped by Asian males would be a hit in the core demographic (White males).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What need is there to include AFs in advertisements for shampoo, clothing, feminine hygiene products, contraception, etc. when the core demographic is WFs?</p>
<p>For my Film class, we watched "Infernal Affair" yesterday, a Hong Kong film that was the inspiration for "The Departed". That broke a lot of Asian stereotypes. </p>
<p>I'm now a fan of Shawn Yue and Edison Chen :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
For my Film class, we watched "Infernal Affair" yesterday, a Hong Kong film that was the inspiration for "The Departed". That broke a lot of Asian stereotypes.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, there really aren't Asian stereotypes in films from Asia (except for maybe the martial arts flicks).</p>
<p>Not unlike films here - they have the handsome male lead, his slightly less handsome rival or best bud, the humorous "big guy", the average Joes, the dorks/losers that everyone else picks on...</p>
<p>Otoh, "The Departed" played up some Asian stereotypes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I didn’t realize Jews were a race.
[/quote]
Ashkenazic Jews are a racial grouping within Caucasians. Damn, do I really have to connect all these dots for you?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Right, but Hollywood has done a lot to be PC about blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals and Asians (well, Asian women).
[/quote]
Do you want Hollywood to be PC or do you want Hollywood to be accurate to reality. Those two goals are very far apart. I think Hollywood is relatively PC about Asian males. It simply doesn't model the amount of variation which generally occurs in culture though.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Then they wouldn’t be so PC with regard to the present day portrayal of homosexuals or by portraying BM/WF couplings as often as they do (which turn off a significant segment of the US pop.)
[/quote]
This is a pointless argument. If the shows does well (Will & Grace) then obviously the calculated risk they took was right. It made a ridiculous amount of money so the portion of the population it turned off was really irrelevant. Regardless, I'd think most of the watchers of that show were female anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What need is there to include AFs in advertisements for shampoo, clothing, feminine hygiene products, contraception, etc. – when the core demographic is WFs?
[/quote]
Women likely don't care. Men likely do. As I've said before, executives (ie: marketing) are concerned primarily with money - nothing else. If they think it will be successful campaign - they'd likely have done it already.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ashkenazic Jews are a racial grouping within Caucasians. Damn, do I really have to connect all these dots for you?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Connect away - since that’s an ETHNIC group and NOT a racial one (duh!).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you want Hollywood to be PC or do you want Hollywood to be accurate to reality. Those two goals are very far apart. I think Hollywood is relatively PC about Asian males. It simply doesn't model the amount of variation which generally occurs in culture though.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What I meant about “PC” is showing a range of portrayals of blacks, gays, etc. instead of the typical stereotyping that Hollywood often falls back on.</p>
<p>As for reality, where are the AMs in doctor-themed shows or shows set in LA, NYC or Seattle? And if Hollywood wanted to show reality, the majority of white/black actors/actresses would be fat or obese and average-looking (but people don’t want to see that – which is why the majority of leading white/black/Hispanic/AF actors are attractive).</p>
<p>How is Hollywood PC about AMs when most portrayals are of old “confucious” types, short dorky nerds, the sinister Asian gangster or martial artists? Nevermind the fact that AMs are hardly ever portrayed in a romantic role (Daniel Dae Kim was in the industry for 14 yrs. before he got a role where he got to kiss a girl) and that there have been more BMs portrayed with AFs (nevermind WMs with AFs) even though in reality, AF/BM coupling are quite rare.</p>
<p>And why does Hollywood "model the variation" for AF actors and not AMs?</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is a pointless argument. If the shows does well (Will & Grace) then obviously the calculated risk they took was right. It made a ridiculous amount of money so the portion of the population it turned off was really irrelevant. Regardless, I'd think most of the watchers of that show were female anyway.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It’s not only”Will & Grace” – there have been many shows with gay/lesbian characters. And that’s my point exactly – Hollywood took a calculated risk (can’t disregard the interest in being more PC) – something which they are unwilling to do with regard to the portrayal of AMs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Women likely don't care. Men likely do. As I've said before, executives (ie: marketing) are concerned primarily with money - nothing else. If they think it will be successful campaign - they'd likely have done it already.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Exactly, but why would they be willing to portray so many WF/BM couples as well (if WMs “care”). You can’t say being PC or “white guilt” hasn’t played a role here with regard to the disparity in treatment.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Connect away - since that’s an ETHNIC group and NOT a racial one (duh!).
[/quote]
Umm, Ashkenazic Jews have a common genetic ancestry (although less common now due to a multitude of factors) which varies significantly from the general European population. To deny this is to deny reality.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I meant about “PC” is showing a range of portrayals of blacks, gays, etc. instead of the typical stereotyping that Hollywood often falls back on.
[/quote]
Ok.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for reality, where are the AMs in doctor-themed shows or shows set in LA, NYC or Seattle?
[/quote]
I've already said I think that AM's are highly underrepresented.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And if Hollywood wanted to show reality, the majority of white/black actors/actresses would be fat or obese and average-looking (but people don’t want to see that – which is why the majority of leading white/black/Hispanic/AF actors are attractive).
[/quote]
Obviously. See, you understand how Hollywood works.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How is Hollywood PC about AMs when most portrayals are of old “confucious” types, short dorky nerds, the sinister Asian gangster or martial artists?
[/quote]
That seems weird, because all the examples that you have given previously seem to not fit those typecast roles. Are you talking specifically of movies? I think the issue is significantly more complex than we are talking of it. Lets talk about the biggest Asian males in Hollywood right now: Jet Li, Jackie Chan, who else? I think the main issue is underrepresentation (or perhaps it's just low representation). Those two actors built their careers doing action, so yep, they will be type cast as action stars. Others (WM/BM) have made the same mistake.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nevermind the fact that AMs are hardly ever portrayed in a romantic role (Daniel Dae Kim was in the industry for 14 yrs. before he got a role where he got to kiss a girl) and that there have been more BMs portrayed with AFs (nevermind WMs with AFs) even though in reality, AF/BM coupling are quite rare.
[/quote]
A problem, no doubt. Why this happens, I don't know. Maybe it's just a reflection of the dating market?</p>
<p>
[quote]
And why does Hollywood "model the variation" for AF actors and not AMs?
[/quote]
I don't know.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Exactly, but why would they be willing to portray so many WF/BM couples as well (if WMs “care”). You can’t say being PC or “white guilt” hasn’t played a role here with regard to the disparity in treatment.
[/quote]
Are we talking about men's products?</p>
<p>wow some interesting discussion here. Thanks to all the feedback. But I was disappointed in the lack of response from the Asian community on CC, and that's odd because CC has a lot of Asians.</p>
<p>Why are Asian reluctant to talk about race issues? Or am I wrong?</p>
<p>meh</p>
<p>I'm a very weird person. On one hand, I'm libertarian, I'd use drugs if I could get them, I'm vegetarian, and I consistently defy my parents. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I do try to study as much as possible, I have no social life, I don't know how to drive, I never dated, etc etc etc...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why are Asian reluctant to talk about race issues? Or am I wrong?
[/quote]
Very few people, of any race, like to talk about race/cultural issues.</p>
<p>not black people</p>
<p>
[quote]
not black people
[/quote]
Oh, I disagree. There are a multitude of topics that are off limits.</p>