Question for East-Coast parents:

Parents Forum
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<p>I was very informed by the thread on college admissions: such diverse and well thought out opinions. One of the points contended in that thread had to do with college selectivity. A couple of posters eloquently argued for the idea that selectivity in most of the Ivy League schools (I would include a few more east coast elites (Hopkins, Duke, Tufts, etc.) is driven by multiple applications from the same applicants. I hadn’t thought of it quite in those terms, but as I began to think about it, things started making some sense.</p>

<p>We live in NJ, and almost everyone in NJ says that it is very difficult to get into east-coast elites if you are a Jersey resident. I’ve heard the same about NY and Mass (I understnad similar problems exit for NY, Mass and Conn). </p>

<p>I know that if we would have lived in a place like Michigan or Cal we would have strongly considered state schools. However, Jersey is not known for the excellence of its state schools.</p>

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<p>Most of the top kids in my daughters school apllied almost exclusively to elite private schools.</p>

<p>I also wonder if the fact that the majority of the elite schools are on the east coast (Ivies, near ivies, LACs: private schools in general) is, at least in part, the cause of the state schools having a tougher time of things.</p>

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<p>"Multiple apps" as in more than one to different schools, or the same school?</p>

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<p>Could be. In my former state, the University of Connecticut is a good school, but only second tier, and no one I knew wanted their kids to go to it.*** Though some top ten kids went for financial reasons, this was discussed by the other kids in hushed tones, as if someone had died. CT may never develop into a tier one school like UVA or UMich, not with Yale there.</p>

<p>Also, as an Ivy interviewer, I knew that kids from CT, especially Fairfield County, were looked at as basically all the same; a kid from South Dakota, say, even with lower stats overall, had a statistically much better chance.</p>

<p>Several kids DID get into Ivies in each, but as you say, there are way too many qualified apps from Mass., CT, and NJ.</p>

<p>***Though VERY few places can top the women's b-ball teams over the past few years!</p>

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<p>I understood Woodwork to mean that students apply to several or all Ivies, so that the actual number of applicants to Ivies is far smaller than would appear by merely adding all Ivy applications.</p>

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<p>I think prestige and having the means to pay for private college influences New Jerseyans. Rutgers definitely has image problems for in-state people, though I don't get the feeling that people in other areas look down on it the same way. I know a lot of people paying quite a bit of money to send their kids to Michigan or Penn State as out of staters from NJ. </p>

<p>While the competition within a group may be fierce, NJ and other northeastern states still send a lot of kids to elite schools. As for why these schools are on the east coast, I think that's just a reflection of the nation's history.</p>

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<p>Sorry marite, I should have made my point with abit more clarity.</p>

<p>You are correct, I meant to say that so many N.E. applicants apply to so many Elite N.E. schools--in part because of the lack of good state schools--that they greatly drive up the selectivity of these schools through a scatter-shot approach to applying.</p>

<p>As to the causal relationship, I really don't know but, as they say you might want to follow the money, $42,000 (elite) v $15,000 (state), I would think this would be at least one factor among others.</p>

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<p>Woodwork:</p>

<p>Last year, Songman decided to send his son to UMass instead of Skidmore largely on financial grounds. Had the choice been between UMass and Harvard or Yale, I have the suspicion Songman and his son might have come to a different decision. I know one family who was in this position (many years ago). The son received a four year full-ride at UMass but turned it down for Harvard.
It seems to me the pool of applicants with the financial resources to consider elite schools is large enough to drive the selectivity up. Where East Coast applicants might do better, thanks to geography, is the Midwest and West Coast where there are quite a few LACs that are comparable in feel and quality to the East Coast LACs. My S just received recruiting letters from Reed, Kenyon and Oberlin (despite not checking the box on his PSAT). The most persistent, however, seems to be UT-Dallas.</p>

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<p>marite,</p>

<p>My daugher ended up going ed to Dartmouth, but had also applied, through rolling admissions, to Boston college because she liked the philosophy dept. and a couple of profs in particular.</p>

<p>A couple days after she was accepted ed to Dartmouth she received admissions to BC honors college. A couple days later she recieved an invitation, along with (we were told) about 50 other students to attend a function for the Presidential Scholarship which was basically a full ride if she got it.
We were sick to our stomach for a day or two (she really loved the BC Phil dept.) and finally came around to thinking she had made the right choice in applying early to dartmouth, at a cost of about $100,000 more.</p>

<p>I don't know that much about Reed, Kenyon or Oberlin, I know they are great schools. I had a prof from Oberlin at umich that used to propagandize for Oberlin at every chance he got--he was eccentric so I figured Oberlin probably was too--that's a compliment for me.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
selectivity in most of the Ivy League schools (I would include a few more east coast elites (Hopkins, Duke, Tufts, etc.) is driven by multiple applications from the same applicants. I hadn’t thought of it quite in those terms, but as I began to think about it, things started making some sense.

[/quote]
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<p>Not only do East Coast students apply to 8-10 of the top 25 schools, but there are many students this year, who have gotten accepted to Harvard, Yale and other SCEA schools, but still went ahead and applied RD to MIT, Princeton. We have 2 in our neighborhood, and several in our school. In cases like these, I believe that it is trophy hunting.</p>

<p>Rutgers is very well known for its Pharmacy and Packaging Engg., U.Conn for pre-med, pre-dental, many schools in the SUNY system are excellent, and all of these state schools have students applying from around the world, but somehow there is a perceived stigma for many local students.</p>

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Anyhow, my question is how much do you think multiple applications are being driven by applicants from the east-coast states not known for the excellence of their state schools?

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<p>The North-East also has some of the highest paying jobs, well-heeled and highly educated families, and not only are people willing and able to pay the $170,000 pricetag, but they are steering their children to name-brand schools, because that's where they went. And I am sure that the 5-to-8 hour driving access to some of the nation's top schools, plays a role. If HYP, MIT,Columbia, Penn, Georgetown, JHU, Amherst, Wellesley, Williams, Brown, Dartmouth, etc. etc., were located in Montana and Idaho, they would not be as oversubscribed.</p>

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<p>Woodwork:</p>

<p>Congratulations to your D on Dartmouth. BC is also a great school, though I, too, would choose Dartmouth over BC.</p>

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<p>Though at my S's highschool, there are many kids all applying to the same school, about 70% of the kids applied early with a majority of them applying to highly selective schools, lottery tickets, and with the rest of their apps being held until notification. Those who got in applied to only one school. So about 30% of his school only sent out one app. But the remaining 70% more than made up for figure, and, yes, the situation as described on this thread certainly exists. There are some schools that received about 40 apps from my son's class. A couple of them are LACs that only have a class of aboauta 400-500 kids. </p>

<p>Looking at the Andover college site, I took a random year and quickly did an assessment. Only 10% of the kids went to non selective schools, the same % that ended up at HPY. About half the kids when to schools that I would put on the top 25-30 list for selectivity. Fewer than 10% (this overlaps with the non selective and the top 25 lists) ended up at state schools. So I am sure that the bulk of the kids were applying to the same schools.</p>

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<p>On a related topic, I assume we were no exception to the basket-filling mailings we received from the top schools; big glossy brochures and letters.</p>

<p>Harvard: 4 brochures, don’t remember the letters-a lot
Brown: 5 brochures, numerous letters.
Cornell: 2 Brochures = letters
Penn: 5 Brochures, many letters
Swarthmore: 3 brochures, 2 CD’s, letters
Haverford: 2 brochures, 2 CD’s letters</p>

<p>There were many others from many other schools. I don’t know if this was just NJ or everywhere. Our mailbox was overstuffed with college marketing for three months. It seemed so excessive—worst than credit card companies!</p>

<p>Interestingly, my daughter never received a single piece of mail from the school she wanted, Dartmouth, until she received her application receipt.</p>

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<p>
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and finally came around to thinking she had made the right choice in applying early to dartmouth, at a cost of about $100,000 more.

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<p>There's part of the answer right there. There were, at last count, around 80 kajillion families in the NE - us included - who would not bat an eye at an extra 100G. Other people would think we were insane! ;)</p>

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<p>Nedad,</p>

<p>what do you mean think? ;)</p>

<p>They don't call these blue-states for nothing: sacre bleu! (as I understand it, it means damn the rich--blue-bloods)</p>

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<p>An interesting question is whether the peer pressure that results in all of theses kids applying to top colleges much influences selectivity. One only has to read these boards to see the hoards of kids pressured to apply who want to believe they really have a shot with below average stats. I have this image of the top schools just piling up the many dreamer applications and getting down to really choosing with a fraction of the applications in hand.</p>

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<p>Woodwork, this is very off topic, but what does your D think about the Dartmouth weather compared to NJ? S is in a boarding school in western NJ and has survived the winter so far, but I'm wondering how he would do in a REALLY cold place like Hanover or Williamstown.</p>

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<p>Hanover is COLD... Daughter has said that the weather does hit -25/-30 at its worse and after that kind of weather 30 degrees is a "nice" day. They break out shorts and flip flops on 50 degree days. I did more worrying about the cold this year than she did,because my constant questions were "Do you have a hat on?" I had a few shake my head moments when she would tell me things like she is pacing her self for the cold because it would be getting colder (so she never put on all of her layers at one time). You will find that they are really adaptable to the weather.</p>

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<p>Momofwildchild,</p>

<p>I defer to Sybbie. She would have a much more informed opinion than I.</p>

<p>My daughter spent the first 11 years of her life in Toronto and Montreal.</p>

<p>But, my two cents:</p>

<p>cold is cold!
I don't care if it is 30 degrees or 15 degrees, you are going to be in a coat; maybe a thicher coat, but a coat.
You will not sunbathe, leave your windows down driving down the highway or go out in a pair of fancy sandals.
If you know how to do it in Jersey--you already have the idea for Hanover: no sweat! (literally).</p>

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<p>One wrinkle in the cold is cold thing is that S is a runner. Degrees of cold and snow seem to matter a little more! Thanks for the input.</p>

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<p>Woodwork--I tend to agree with you that the abundant number of LAC's and high-profile universities in the area acccounts for the relatively poorer state of Massachusetts's state education system.</p>

<p>One interesting phenomenon that I witnessed four years ago when S chose to attend UCLA was the response of other HS parents: "Why would you send your kid across the country to another school? Aren't there enough good schools in the area or closer to home?" Even an acquaintance who was on the Harvard Board of Overseers was surprised that he hadn't considered the WGU (World's Greatest University--a moniker from the Boston Globe's Alex Beam). It does smack somewhat of elitism/parochialism.</p>